your testimony!

[sidhe]

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I don't follow. A better solution is that people stop buying the products...

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Well, you see, then you'd have to enforce your view on the entire world, and by my view, that's horribly, horribly wrong. There's nothing more wrong than to try to force someone to live by your rules, assuming they're not out killing people. You've set yourself up on the moral high ground, and rather than try to convince people that you're correct, you moralize and sermonize to them. Why not tell people the health benefits of veganism, rather than shouting at them about their immoral stance? And, even then, you won't convince everyone. So, the only way you can make sure that no animal is harmed is to either

a) kill all humans.
b) kill all humans who disagree with you.
c) make people eat each other.

because some people just won't stop eating meat.

What do you do for animals? You admitted you use their flesh and skin supporting the industry that abuses them.

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Let's see...I give to the ASPCA, PETA, and various other animal charities, I take in homeless animals and care for them (including one dog who my wife and I bottlefed and carried around in a sling until it was old enough to walk and play with the other dogs), I don't buy anything animal-tested, I actively oppose the fur factories, I support animal shelters, I oppose puppy mills, and I especially support no-kill animal shelters.

What do you do other than not eat meat or wear animal products, and claim heightened morality? Would you give up eating well - as my wife and I sometimes had to do before she got pregnant - to make sure that your pets had food?

That I am sorry for.

You should feel more sorry that attitudes like yours are what dissuade people from vegan and vegetarian lifestyles. I don't really eat meat, nor do I like eating meat, but - as my wife is pregnant, the dietary issues that accompany pregnancy, and we're not wealthy enough to buy exclusively vegan foods - my wife and I have to eat meat at this point in time. When we were vegetarian (and even when we were vegan) we didn't claim moral superiority over anyone. Haughtiness and moralizing don't win people to your cause, only reason and good sense will do that. I certainly don't appreciate being treated as an unenlightened individual who needs to be talked down to.

Accept that people are different, and not everyone is going to agree with you, and get over it.

 

[mnbvcxz87]

Well, you see, then you'd have to enforce your view on the entire world, and by my view, that's horribly, horribly wrong. There's nothing more wrong than to try to force someone to live by your rules, assuming they're not out killing people. You've set yourself up on the moral high ground, and rather than try to convince people that you're correct, you moralize and sermonize to them. Why not tell people the health benefits of veganism, rather than shouting at them about their immoral stance? And, even then, you won't convince everyone. So, the only way you can make sure that no animal is harmed is to either

a) kill all humans.
b) kill all humans who disagree with you.
c) make people eat each other.

because some people just won't stop eating meat.

I've tried every tack, on here at various times and with people I know. Most find the issue boring, and those who defend it do so without any decent reasons, it's mostly things like,

animals kill eachother so why can't we,
it's the food chain,
I just don't care about animals.
They're just animals, so what?
It tastes good / I like eating them

And the worst is, my religion allows me. That's why I dislike the religions.

I know what you're saying about imposing views but you have to appreciate the difference between the issue of using animals for produce, and a topical view.

Using animals for food means you kill them, it is by definition an evil system, because we know that they can feel pain.

Let's see...I give to the ASPCA, PETA, and various other animal charities, I take in homeless animals and care for them (including one dog who my wife and I bottlefed and carried around in a sling until it was old enough to walk and play with the other dogs), I don't buy anything animal-tested, I actively oppose the fur factories, I support animal shelters, I oppose puppy mills, and I especially support no-kill animal shelters.

What do you do other than not eat meat or wear animal products, and claim heightened morality?

Try and convince others to do the same.

If you do all that for animals by the way, which I think is fantastic, why do you eat them and use their skin? Forget your religion, your personal morality.

You should feel more sorry that attitudes like yours are what dissuade people from vegan and vegetarian lifestyles. I don't really eat meat, nor do I like eating meat, but - as my wife is pregnant, the dietary issues that accompany pregnancy, and we're not wealthy enough to buy exclusively vegan foods - my wife and I have to eat meat at this point in time. When we were vegetarian (and even when we were vegan) we didn't claim moral superiority over anyone. Haughtiness and moralizing don't win people to your cause, only reason and good sense will do that. I certainly don't appreciate being treated as an unenlightened individual who needs to be talked down to.

Why would your wife need meat if pregnant? All the proteins she needs can be taken from grains and vegetables. I don't think vegan foods are expensive either, on the whole they are vegetables fruits and grains. Those foods are all pretty cheap, where I'm from. Of course organic fruits and veg are more expensive, and better for you, but normal fruits aren't too bad of course when washed.

Accept that people are different, and not everyone is going to agree with you, and get over it.

It's not about my getting over it, it's about the animals who suffer.

I don't claim moral superiority over anyone, either. The morality I practice is higher, maybe, but everyone has the same morality in them. So everyone is equally moral to one another.

Actually talking about price, there are lots of practical benefits to veganism but they are secondary to the ethical reasons, which is why I don't stress them. But it should be said that raising huge numbers of animals for slaughter is both unhealthy for us to eat, for various reasons, and economically a poor choice; it's much more cost effective to mass produce vegetables fruits and grains that animals. But talking like this devalues animals as a food source, which they aren't.

 

[OdwinOddball]

I already understand the opposing view. I have been on their side, eating meat dairy and eggs every day. Any morality which permits use of animals for meat dairy or eggs, is lower than a morality which does not.

But honestly before you respond do one thing, what I suggested to sidhe.

On this following link, if you would watch between minutes 10-13 you will see a slaughter, in a slaughterhouse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXS_Ekd_r80

I've been in a slaughter house. Live, not recored on tape. No, its not pleasant. Yes, I would prefer we did not need to rely on factory farming. But in the end, the meat still tastes good on my plate.

Your morality is just your morality. Is is not higher than theirs in there standard, that is true only in your word view, thus only in YOUR OPINION.

Once you understand that, you might actually be able to have a conversation about these issues instead of just throwing a tantrum.

 

[sidhe]

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Why would your wife need meat if pregnant? All the proteins she needs can be taken from grains and vegetables. I don't think vegan foods are expensive either, on the whole they are vegetables fruits and grains. Those foods are all pretty cheap, where I'm from. Of course organic fruits and veg are more expensive, and better for you, but normal fruits aren't too bad of course when washed.

Hmmm, there's the calcium intake which must be heightened, iron intake which must be heightened, and the cheapest sources of protein are eggs and meat.

I'm not sure if you realize this, only being 19, but supplements and specialty vegan foods are considerably more expensive than their non-vegan counterparts. And soy and rice milk are prohibitively expensive compared to cow milk. So, it's either have money to pay bills and provide for the needs of the soon-to-be-born child, or spending it on supplements and expensive specialty foods and spending excess time counting up the exact amounts of protein, iron, and calcium that are required. We looked into vegan/vegetarian diets while pregnant. It's much, much more trouble than you can imagine, vegan in particular.

And the idea that all humans have the same moral code stamped on their psyche is highly repugnant to me. We're all individuals, and allowed to make our own judgments. To imply that everyone would agree with you, if they listened to some "inner voice," is highly presumptory and arrogant. It rings of fundamentalism, and I find anyone who's that staunch that everyone really agrees with them is not someone I want to talk to.

 

[mnbvcxz87]

I've been in a slaughter house. Live, not recored on tape. No, its not pleasant. Yes, I would prefer we did not need to rely on factory farming. But in the end, the meat still tastes good on my plate.

Your morality is just your morality. Is is not higher than theirs in there standard, that is true only in your word view, thus only in YOUR OPINION.

Once you understand that, you might actually be able to have a conversation about these issues instead of just throwing a tantrum.

Enphatically no, your morality is lower. You cannot justify having a slave, because it would undoubtedly benefit you, but the welfare of the person who is exploited as a slave makes slavery immoral.

One calling slavery immoral isn't their opinion, it is a moral truth. Regardless of how good any animal tastes, animal farming is pure evil. That is not a tantrum that is the truth.

 

[mnbvcxz87]

Hmmm, there's the calcium intake which must be heightened, iron intake which must be heightened, and the cheapest sources of protein are eggs and meat.

I'm not sure if you realize this, only being 19, but supplements and specialty vegan foods are considerably more expensive than their non-vegan counterparts. And soy and rice milk are prohibitively expensive compared to cow milk. So, it's either have money to pay bills and provide for the needs of the soon-to-be-born child, or spending it on supplements and expensive specialty foods and spending excess time counting up the exact amounts of protein, iron, and calcium that are required. We looked into vegan/vegetarian diets while pregnant. It's much, much more trouble than you can imagine, vegan in particular.

Do you really think a pregnant human needs non human milk to survive? Obviously not, but anyway in terms of calcium, the one and only supplement product you would need is soy milk, which contains more calcium than cow's milk.

So if you didn't buy meat milk or eggs, but soy milk, food would still be cheaper overall.

And am I mistaken or is iron abundant in many cheap grains?

And the idea that all humans have the same moral code stamped on their psyche is highly repugnant to me. We're all individuals, and allowed to make our own judgments. To imply that everyone would agree with you, if they listened to some "inner voice," is highly presumptory and arrogant. It rings of fundamentalism, and I find anyone who's that staunch that everyone really agrees with them is not someone I want to talk to.

Then you've mistaken the concept for something it isn't.

 

[mnbvcxz87]

A minutes research and,

The RDA for iron for pregnant women increases to 27 mg per day.

per 100gramme / 3.5 ounce serving:

Soybeans, mature seeds, raw15.700

Seeds, pumpkin and squash seed kernels14.970

Winged beans, mature seeds, raw13.440

Tomatoes, sun-dried9.090

Beans, kidney, california red, mature seeds, raw9.350

Lentils, mature seeds, raw9.020

Seems to be mainly seeds, beans and some grains, and some pulses. Very healthy foods, and very good sources of protein too.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

Honestly (as the woman in question here) and as this is my 2nd pregnancy, and as I have done significant research into vegan/vegetarian lifestyle and pregnancy it is not as trouble free as you try to insinuate.

I drink both cow & soy milk as well as regular cheese and soy cheese on occasion. I am quite healthy. And you still have not addressed the Iron issue. Some of the "best" (in a nutritional standpoint) iron is found in liver, lean meat, and eggs. The iron in grains is harder to process and to obtain. I do not intend to sit here and take additional supplements as would be directed by a doctor or midwife when I can get all my nutrients through healthy food. You are 19 years old. I trust my physicians and the nutritionist I see more than you about what my needs are in pregnancy. I especially trust my experience and reserach more since I am a woman in her 2nd pregnancy and I think I've done more research than you about this issue. Don't comment about something you have little idea of. When you impregnate someone you can impose your views on her diet and learn about all the nutritional needs and then asess.

By your time zone which shows on your posts, I can only assume you do not live in the U.S. Do not make assesments about food in my country since I do not belive you are familiar enough with the cost here. Its nice for you to be able to do a minutes worth of research and come up with your laundry list above, but again I would tell you, those things may not be as "affordable" as you may think. Not to mention in preparation. Again, when you actually impregnate someone impose your dictatorship on her. Don't tell me or my husband what I need to eat and then insinuate that our morality is lower than yours.

Like my husband said...you would have more of an audiance if you didn't come off as a holier than thou zealot.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

So I would have to eat almost a half a pound of those items you stated just to be able to get my iron for the day....and that's only the first two items and by the time you get to lentils that's almost 3/4 a pound a day. And they loose iron as they are cooked. So I'm really not subjecting myself to such a monotonous diet.

Like I said before. A minutes research means nothing. I studied this very thoroughly before I was pregnant and when I found out. I studied the pros and cons and therefore chose my diet. I am healthy and my baby is quite healthy. Not that I'm saying a vegan diet, if done correctly cannot be healthy. Its just very difficult to do while someone is pregnant and requires much more nutrient counting than someone just following a standard healthy diet.

Like I said in my previous post...calm down the preaching and someone might listen and take you more seriously.

 

[TricksterWolf]

A minutes research and,

The RDA for iron for pregnant women increases to 27 mg per day.

per 100gramme / 3.5 ounce serving:

Soybeans, mature seeds, raw15.700

Seeds, pumpkin and squash seed kernels14.970

Winged beans, mature seeds, raw13.440

Tomatoes, sun-dried9.090

Beans, kidney, california red, mature seeds, raw9.350

Lentils, mature seeds, raw9.020

Seems to be mainly seeds, beans and some grains, and some pulses. Very healthy foods, and very good sources of protein too.

But what about the feelings of the vegetables you slaughter...?

"Carrot Juice Is Murder" by The Arrogant Worms

Listen up, brothers and sisters
Come hear my desperate tale
I speak of our friends of nature
Trapped in the dirt like a jail

Vegetables live in oppression
Served on our tables each night
This killing of veggies is madness
I say we take up the fight

Salads are only for murderers
Cole slaw's a fascist regime
Don't think that they don't have feelings
Just 'cause a radish can't scream

I've heard the screams of the vegetables, scream scream scream
Watching their skins being peeled, having their insides revealed
Grated and steamed with no mercy, burning off calories
How do you think that feels, bet it hurts really bad
Carrot juice constitutes murder, and that's a real crime
Greenhouses prisons for slaves, let my vegetables grow
It's time to stop all this gardening, it's dirty as hell
Let's call a spade a spade, it's a spade it's a spade it's a spade

I saw a man eating celery
So I beat him black and blue
If he ever touches a sprout again
I'll bite him clean in two

I'm a political prisoner
Trapped in a windowless cage
'Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips
By killing five men in a rage

I told the judge when he sentenced me
"This is my finest hour
I'll kill those farmers again
Just to save one more cauliflower"

How low as people do we dare to stoop
Making young broccolis bleed in the soup
Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes
Set potted plants free, don't mash that potato, ah

I've heard the screams of the vegetables scream scream scream
Watching their skins being peeled fates in the stir fry are sealed
Grated and steamed with no mercy you fat gourmet scum
How do you think that feels leave them out in the fields
Carrot juice constitutes murder V8's genocide
Greenhouses prisons for slaves yes your compost's a grave
It's time to stop all this gardening take up macramé
Let's call a spade a spade it's a spade it's a spade it's a spade

Trickster

 

[arunma]

How did this become another discussion on vegetarianism?

 

[mnbvcxz87]

Mr and Mrs sidhe I don't think you understand. I'm not here to converse on a normal level. I am here to teach on a level which has been parallelled by only few throughout history.

Regards your nutritional needs while pregnant. Nuts, pulses, grains and beans are easy to mass produce. They are a cheap product, I know without researching that they are cheap in the US. I also know, and will guaruntee that you do not need any animal products whilst pregnant, and that you can take everything you need from wholly natural products, no pills or supplements. If your research didn't show the same results then your research was flawed.

 

[mnbvcxz87]

Wolf vegetables have no feelings, they have no brains.

Also spinach, edible leaves etc, vegetables , carrots, strawberries.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

Um..again..you are wrong. I have just went to two sites and both say you need additonal supplements. Also Iron is not as easily absorbed into the body through some foods including some of the foods you mention. If your research didn't show this it is flawed and dangerous.

Nuts and grains are easy to produce but that is not the only thing you need.

Like I said before. I am not going to trust your nutrional advise over the advise of my midwife and my nutritionist. You are 19 years old and I doubt you have a degree in nutriton. You are also highly immature to assume you know everything there is to know about this subject.

As for your "teachings", I've read prior posts of your where you seem to think you have and know "the truth". I've also read where you think that all animals need to be cared for as pets. You are not teaching on any level surpassed by anyone other than other zealots.

Since I doubt you will do anything other than tell me how wrong and immoral apparently I am, I'm afraid our conversation must end.

See I know when to stop talking....one who is really on "some other level" knows when to stop talking and listen.

Good bye and have a nice day.

 

[arunma]

Mr and Mrs sidhe I don't think you understand. I'm not here to converse on a normal level. I am here to teach on a level which has been parallelled by only few throughout history.

Hmm, I'm going to have to agree with Mrs. Sidhe on this one. If you claim that you teach on a level higher than most of the greatest minds throughout history, chances are that what you're going to say isn't all that profound. No offense, it's just that it's hard to take someone seriously who effectively says, "I am one of the greatest minds in history."

 

[TricksterWolf]

Mr and Mrs sidhe I don't think you understand. I'm not here to converse on a normal level. I am here to teach on a level which has been parallelled by only few throughout history.

You sound like the intro to Dianetics.

Trickster

 

[TricksterWolf]

Wolf vegetables have no feelings, they have no brains.

Also spinach, edible leaves etc, vegetables , carrots, strawberries.

Wolf vegetables?! Barbaric!

Oh. You mean me. Umm...never mind.

But sure, vegetables have brains and feelings. They think with their starchy parts.

Trickster

 

[mnbvcxz87]

Another minute of research and, vitamin c aids absortion of iron.

'Vitamin C is obtained through the diet by the vast majority of the world's population. The richest natural sources are fruits and vegetables'

If daily you ate a mix of nuts, pulses, grains, dried fruits, leaf vegetables, beans, seeds, and other vegetables , cabbage spinach etc, that is the iron you need.

 

[mnbvcxz87]

Hmm, I'm going to have to agree with Mrs. Sidhe on this one. If you claim that you teach on a level higher than most of the greatest minds throughout history, chances are that what you're going to say isn't all that profound. No offense, it's just that it's hard to take someone seriously who effectively says, "I am one of the greatest minds in history."

Not a great mind at all. What I have to teach is a great message, and whoever ridicules that, I don't care. If you listen to my message, I tell you what we happen to us if we carry on the way we act, and how we can stop that happening. I also tell you what is the moral way to live, and wether you accept moral truth is up to you.

 

[ERice2nd]

your trying to change our minds about meat. do you realize the problems with over poulation of the animal kingdom?....shall we let them die of disease and other predetors? The death we offer them is much cleaner and it means I dont have to go hungry with the shortage of vegetables when all the animals eat up all the greens and nuts and fruits