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Your opinion on drinking

savedfromdistruction

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If drunkenness is equal to being impaired because of what you have ingested, and it is as the only thing that varies is the severity of the impairment, then according to the laws on the books it is anything that shows up in the blood as alcohol.
Impairment begins with the first drink according to the law.

"The legal limit for intoxication in Texas is .08 blood alcohol concentration (BAC). However, Texas has a zero tolerance law. Drivers can be stopped and cited for impaired driving from alcohol or other drugs no matter what their BAC may be. For anyone under the age of 21 it is unlawful to drive having consumed any detectable amount of alcohol."

http://www.alamodefense.com/dwi-limit.asp

http://www.austin-dwi-specialist.com/bac-alcohol-texas

As to Psalm 140:15 the writer is not suggesting that we are to seek after wine to become glad. God makes it clear we are not to even look on it when fermented. The Psalmist is simply stating a fact about the effects of the wine. Our gladness is to come from knowing the Lord not drugs.

Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, [when] it moveth itself aright.
 
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dies-l

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AmbryRye said:
The wine that Jesus drank and turned the water into is not the same as the wine we have today.

When reading the interlinear Greek-English New Testament, we see that there is a different word for "wine" in the scripture where Jesus turned water into wine and scripture that talks about wine in a negative light.

When you break down the meaning of these different words, one means unfermented wine (it even refers to the grapes on the vine as unfermented wine) and there is fermented wine (the kind that gets you drunk).

I do not know why English translations did not see it necessary to make the distinction, but it is there in black and white.

Jesus was not dealing with an alcoholic wine, but more like a grape juice syrup.

I'm sorry, but that is just not true.
 
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Rhamiel

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The wine that Jesus drank and turned the water into is not the same as the wine we have today.

When reading the interlinear Greek-English New Testament, we see that there is a different word for "wine" in the scripture where Jesus turned water into wine and scripture that talks about wine in a negative light.

When you break down the meaning of these different words, one means unfermented wine (it even refers to the grapes on the vine as unfermented wine) and there is fermented wine (the kind that gets you drunk).

I do not know why English translations did not see it necessary to make the distinction, but it is there in black and white.

Jesus was not dealing with an alcoholic wine, but more like a grape juice syrup.

what about the wine at the last supper? that would have been at passover, early spring, they would not have fresh grapes to make fresh grape juice and old grape juice either turns to vinigar or wine
 
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Studious One

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what about the wine at the last supper? that would have been at passover, early spring, they would not have fresh grapes to make fresh grape juice and old grape juice either turns to vinigar or wine
Really? Are you absolutely sure they would not have had a grape juice at Passover time?

According to first Century figures like Pliny the Elder, Cato, Plutarch, and Aristotle, they had methods of preserving a non fermented wine that could last a year or more without ever fermenting.

My wife and I followed one of the recipes prescribed in 2005 and stored the non fermented wine for 2 years before opening it and drinking it. I drank a 14oz cup of it in 10 seconds. Didn't get the least bit buzzed. After doing our experiment, I am convinced that there were indeed methods of preserving grape wine in its non fermented state, and that the wine served at Passover was not fermented.

Jesus said at the Last Supper that the wine represented His blood. I highly doubt Christ would have likened His blood to an intoxicant... a poison.
 
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Rhamiel

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Really? Are you absolutely sure they would not have had a grape juice at Passover time?

According to first Century figures like Pliny the Elder, Cato, Plutarch, and Aristotle, they had methods of preserving a non fermented wine that could last a year or more without ever fermenting.

My wife and I followed one of the recipes prescribed in 2005 and stored the non fermented wine for 2 years before opening it and drinking it. I drank a 14oz cup of it in 10 seconds. Didn't get the least bit buzzed. After doing our experiment, I am convinced that there were indeed methods of preserving grape wine in its non fermented state, and that the wine served at Passover was not fermented.

Jesus said at the Last Supper that the wine represented His blood. I highly doubt Christ would have likened His blood to an intoxicant... a poison.
I have never heard that they had a way to store fresh grape juice and not have it turn, I thought that all started with Louis Pasture and Welches, I think Welches was a Methodist who wanted to have non-alcoholic grape juice for church services
I hope I do not sound too demanding, but could you provide some information that shows that ancient people could store fresh grape juice?
 
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Studious One

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I have never heard that they had a way to store fresh grape juice and not have it turn, I thought that all started with Louis Pasture and Welches, I think Welches was a Methodist who wanted to have non-alcoholic grape juice for church services
I hope I do not sound too demanding, but could you provide some information that shows that ancient people could store fresh grape juice?

That information can be found in several books. One by the Reverend B Parsons records the fact that there were non fermented wines. In it he mentions Pliny as saying, "poculo vini "innocentis" or "the best wine is innocent".

ChristianQuestions.org has a good article explaining some of the ancient methods used in preserving a non alcoholic wine.
 
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Hupomone10

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Just one counter question. (Directed at nobody in general)

If Jesus was the God-man, and if Jesus has the same attributes as the Father, would it be stupid not to say that He couldn't create wine already aged?

Kinda kills the omnipotence of Jesus the God-man don't it.

It places something totally outside His power.

Jesus could heal the sick and the lame, give sight to the blind, raise the dead, command the weather, walk on water, but He could not make wine already fermented.

And for the record brother, I read your reasons and I agree with your stance. God bless you in your firmness of conviction.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Thanks, DD.
 
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Hupomone10

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what about the wine at the last supper? that would have been at passover, early spring, they would not have fresh grapes to make fresh grape juice and old grape juice either turns to vinigar or wine
That is a good point; and I figure it was probably fermented wine. For the record, they probably ate fatty foods and things this health-conscious and environmentally-conscious generation wouldn't eat. I think one difference that we should keep in mind so that we don't fool ourselves is that they had no alternatives. The Christian today simply doesn't need to indulge in alcoholic beverages. I drink mostly water, and when I drink an occasional pop, I actually regard an occasional glass of wine or beer as not altogether different from the can of pop, no worse; perhaps the alcoholic beverage is in some ways better.

Blessings,
H.


 
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AmbryRye

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Jesus could heal the sick and the lame, give sight to the blind, raise the dead, command the weather, walk on water, but He could not make wine already fermented.

Could not or would not?

For one, the wine at the wedding feast was unfermented wine.

There is fermented wine and unfermented wine. Jesus could make either, but chose the unfermented wine.
 
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DeaconDean

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When reading the interlinear Greek-English New Testament, we see that there is a different word for "wine" in the scripture where Jesus turned water into wine and scripture that talks about wine in a negative light.

You know, thats strange since the "The Interlinear Bible, Hebrew, Greek, English" Jay P. Green Sr., Hendrickson Publishing Company, 1 Volume Edition, Copyright 1976, is exactly the same as the text displayed at www.Greekbible.com.

It is also the exact same as displayed at www.scripture4all.org.

It is the exacxt same word used at www.biblegateway.com. (οἶνον)

It is the exact same word shown in the Codex Sinaiticus at www.csntm.org.

It is also the exact same as the word quoted in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

I hate to say it, but your wrong.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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My Bible tells me that Jesus never sinned. He would have been guilty of sin had He given alcohol to those who had already well drunk.

And the scriptures of the OT make it abundantly claer that comsumption of blood was forbidden.

And yet, the sinless Christ at the Last Supper, could also have caused the disciples to sin in drinking something that resembles blood, which scriptures strickly forbid.

And again, 3,4, or even 500 guests at the wedding, which was common as whole towns turned out for these, woiuld 100-150 gallons of wine gone far enough to make that many guests drunk?

And, as pointed out earlier, somebody seen Jesus drinking wine because He was accused of being a "wine-bibber" as recorded in the scriptures.

Your theory does not hold up in light of closer examination of the scriptures.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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AmbryRye

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I hate to say it, but your wrong.

I am sorry, sir, but YOU are wrong. I have the book next to me at this moment. I know it takes a little more effort to actually open a book as opposed to searching webpages created by people, but I am using an actual book.

Interlinear Greek-English New Testament
George Ricker Berry

Additionally, I did not cite the scripture that I compared so how could you possible know what scripture I was looking at? Please do not make assumptions because, just as you have done here, you are wrong and draw inaccurate conclusions.

And I do not appreciate being called a liar, thank you.
 
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Studious One

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Jesus merely stated that He came eating and drinking. You, like the Pharisees, accuse Him of drinking a fermented beverage. They were not accusing Him of being a drunk, but rather of being a drinker of wine.

The word "winebibber" is the Greek word "oinopotes" It is a combination of two Greek words, "oinos" meaning "wine" and "potes" meaning "drinker"

oivnopo,thj, ovinopotou, o` (oi=noj, and po,thj a drinker), a winebibber, given to wine: Matt. 11:19; Luke 7:34. (Prov. 23:20; Polybius 20, 8, 2; Anacreon (530 B. C.) fragment 98; Anthol. 7, 28, 2.)*

Jesus soundly refuted their false accusation against Him when He said, "But wisdom is justified of all her children."

Neither Jesus, nor His Apostles (His spiritual children) drank fermented beverage. Those who mocked the Apostles on the day of Pentecost knew the Apostles did not drink fermented wine but rather new wine, that which was unfermented. They attested to the fact that the Apostles did not drink a fermented beverage when they mockingly said, "These men are full of new wine".
 
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sheina

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I am sorry, sir, but YOU are wrong. I have the book next to me at this moment. I know it takes a little more effort to actually open a book as opposed to searching webpages created by people, but I am using an actual book.

Interlinear Greek-English New Testament
George Ricker Berry

Additionally, I did not cite the scripture that I compared so how could you possible know what scripture I was looking at? Please do not make assumptions because, just as you have done here, you are wrong and draw inaccurate conclusions.

And I do not appreciate being called a liar, thank you.
Here's an article by the late Dr. Bruce Lackey:

TEN PROOFS THAT JESUS DID NOT MAKE OR DRINK ALCOHOLIC WINE:

THE FIRST REASON IS BECAUSE OF HIS HOLY NATURE. In Heb. 7:26, we read that the Lord Jesus is “holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners.” No doubt, the Saviour, being God in the flesh, had an air of holiness about Himself that could be seen by even the most casual observer. For instance, the profane soldiers, who were sent to arrest Him, gave as their reason for returning without Him, that “never a man spake like this man.” (John 7:46) The words of Jesus were different; He, no doubt, had a very holy appearance, character, and speech.

Why is this so important? Consider this illustration. The word “cider” may mean an alcoholic beverage, or plain apple juice. Suppose we lived during the 1920s, prohibition days, and were approached by two people offering us a drink of cider. One of the persons, we knew to be one of the holiest men in town, faithful to the house of God, separated from the world, diligent in prayers, always witnessing to others; the other was a known liquor dealer. If each one offered us a drink of “his very own cider,” we would assume that the holy person’s was no more than apple juice, but there would be no doubt about our opinion regarding the liquor dealer’s cider! Obviously, the character of a person influences what that one does.

Since the Lord Jesus Christ was “holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners,” we may safely assume that He would not make that which is called in Scripture a mocker and deceiver of man, causing untold misery.

A SECOND REASON IS THAT HE WOULD NOT CONTRADICT SCRIPTURE. In Mt. 5:17- 18, Christ made this clear, saying, “Think not that I am come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Therefore, Christ could not have contradicted Hab. 2:15, “Woe unto him that giveth his neighbor drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!”

Certainly, Jesus knew that this verse was in the Bible; He was well-acquainted with Scripture, since it is His Word and was written about Him. He did not come to violate Scripture, but to fulfill it. He could not have done so, if He had made alcoholic wine and had given it to his neighbor.

Some people object to the use of this verse by saying that it would apply only to one who would give his neighbor drink for the purpose of looking on his nakedness. But we must remember: when one gives his neighbor something which will make him drunk, he is putting himself in the very class of those who do so in order to look on their nakedness. And since the Scripture commands us to “abstain from all appearance of evil” (1 Th. 5:22), we can be sure that the Lord Jesus would not have done something that would have been associated with such an evil practice as that described in Hab. 2:15. For the same reason, no Christian should be engaged in the selling of alcoholic beverage.

THE THIRD REASON IS THAT LEV. 10:9-11 COMMANDS THE PRIEST OF GOD NOT TO DRINK WINE OR STRONG DRINK. “Do not drink wine nor strong drink ... that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; and that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statues which the Lord hath spoken...” Now, since Heb. 2:17 calls Christ “a merciful and faithful high priest,” we would expect Him to obey all Scriptures pertaining to that office. If He had made or drunk alcoholic wine, He would have disobeyed these verses and would have been disqualified from teaching the children of Israel the statues of the Lord.

THE FOURTH REASON IS FOUND IN A PASSAGE WHICH WE HAVE ALREADY CONSIDERED: PR. 31:4-5 PROHIBITS KINGS AND PRINCES FROM DRINKING ALCOHOLIC WINE OR ANY OTHER STRONG DRINK. IF THEY HAD DONE SO, THEIR JUDGMENT WOULD HAVE BEEN PERVERTED. It was necessary for Christ to obey these verses also, since He was Prince of Peace (Isa. 9:6) and King of Kings (Rev. 19:16). In Mt. 27:11, He admitted to being the King of the Jews. He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey’s colt, to fulfill Zec. 9:9, which prophesied that Israel’s king would enter the city in just that way. Undoubtedly, He was king, and as such, would have had to obey Prov. 31:4-5.

REASON FIVE IS THAT CHRIST DID NOT COME TO MOCK OR DECEIVE PEOPLE, yet Prov. 20:1 says that wine does both. Rather than coming to mock or deceive he came to save!

REASON SIX IS THAT HE DID NOT COME TO SEND PEOPLE TO HELL. We have already seen that Isa. 5:11-14 teaches that Hell had to be enlarged because of the drinking of alcoholic beverage. Christ did not come to send people to Hell; listen to Jn. 3:17: “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

REASON SEVEN IS THAT CHRIST DID NOT COME TO CAST A STUMBLINGBLOCK BEFORE ANYONE; yet, Rom. 14:21 teaches that a person who gives another alcoholic wine does just that. “It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.” Everyone who has studied the problem of alcoholism has learned that some people cannot handle any amount of alcohol, while others may drink one or two “social” drinks and stop. Experts do not know why this is true; various theories have been propounded, but nothing has been proved to be true regarding every person. Some say it is chemical; others insist that it must be psychological. The fact is, we do not know for certain. In any given group of people, there would be several potential alcoholics. What a shame it would be for a person, who is a potential slave to it, to get his first taste at the Lord’s Table in church, then proceed down the road of misery to an alcoholic’s grave!

I certainly would not want my children to get their first taste of alcohol at the family meal; nor would I want them to get it at church. One or more of them could well be potential alcoholics. As evidence that this is possible, we should consider that some denominations which serve alcoholic wine in their religious services also operate homes for alcoholic priests!

But we can be absolutely sure that Christ did not come to cause others to stumble!

THE EIGHTH REASON IS THAT THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT THAT WINE OF JOHN 2 BE ALCOHOLIC. Many insist that it was alcoholic, on the basis of John 2:10, which says, “Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse; but thou hast kept the good wine until now.” They would say that, in those days, it was common to serve the best alcoholic wine at first, saving the worst until later, when men’s tastes have been dulled by much drinking. But the point is just the opposite here! These people could definitely recognize that the wine which Jesus made was much better than what they had been served at first. This could not have been possible if they were already well on their way to becoming intoxicated! The fact is, neither the wine which they had at first, nor that which Christ made, was alcoholic.

REASON NINE IS THAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WOULD NOT HAVE GOTTEN GLORY FROM MAKING DRUNK PEOPLE DRUNKER. Verse 11 is most important when it states that, by this miracle, Jesus “manifested forth his glory.” Verse 10 indicates that the people had drunk quite a bit of whatever kind of wine they were drinking. If it had been alcoholic, they would have been intoxicated, or nearly so. Had Christ made alcoholic wine, He would have made drunk people drunker, or almost-drunk people completely drunk! Such a deed would certainly not have manifested any glory to Him!

THE TENTH REASON IS THAT MAKING DRUNK PEOPLE DRUNKER WOULD NOT HAVE CAUSED HIS DISCIPLES TO BELIEVE MORE STRONGLY ON HIM, yet verse 11 says that, as a result of what He did in turning the water into wine, “his disciples believed on him.” Jn. 1:41 shows that they had already believed on Him as Messiah; this was a deepening of their faith and a proof that they had not been wrong. Would making drunk people drunker inspire such faith? The opposite would be likely! They were not looking for a Messiah who would pass out free booze! Thus, because of the description of this miracle and its result, we cannot conclude otherwise than that this wine was non-alcoholic.

Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?
 
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Hammster

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Studious One said:
Jesus merely stated that He came eating and drinking. You, like the Pharisees, accuse Him of drinking a fermented beverage. They were not accusing Him of being a drunk, but rather of being a drinker of wine.

The word "winebibber" is the Greek word "oinopotes" It is a combination of two Greek words, "oinos" meaning "wine" and "potes" meaning "drinker"

oivnopo,thj, ovinopotou, o` (oi=noj, and po,thj a drinker), a winebibber, given to wine: Matt. 11:19; Luke 7:34. (Prov. 23:20; Polybius 20, 8, 2; Anacreon (530 B. C.) fragment 98; Anthol. 7, 28, 2.)*

Jesus soundly refuted their false accusation against Him when He said, "But wisdom is justified of all her children."

Neither Jesus, nor His Apostles (His spiritual children) drank fermented beverage. Those who mocked the Apostles on the day of Pentecost knew the Apostles did not drink fermented wine but rather new wine, that which was unfermented. They attested to the fact that the Apostles did not drink a fermented beverage when they mockingly said, "These men are full of new wine".

That must be why He was accused of being a drunkard.
 
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faithabides

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One only need to go to the Wedding feast and Jesus first miracle to know that the wine was not alcoholic.

Scripture tells us that Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. Since His mission was to seek and to save that which was lost, He would not have worked His first miracle by giving man that which is responsible for making men drunkards... damning their immortal souls to hell.

Had the wine at the wedding feast been alcoholic, Jesus would have been adding to man's drunkenness. Those at the feast had already "well drunk". They drank so much of the wine supplied that there was no more. So here comes Jesus, and to manifest His glory (v.11) He creates between 120 and 150 more gallons of wine for them to drink... adding to their drunkenness.

My Bible tells me that Jesus never sinned. He would have been guilty of sin had He given alcohol to those who had already well drunk.

My Jesus is not the Jesus that many want Him to be. My Jesus is pure, spotless, undefiled. He does not tempt man with sin, nor does He put anything in man's hand that could cause man to sin.

Habakkuk 2:15 (KJV) Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

Great response!!:thumbsup:
 
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DeaconDean

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I am sorry, sir, but YOU are wrong. I have the book next to me at this moment. I know it takes a little more effort to actually open a book as opposed to searching webpages created by people, but I am using an actual book.

Interlinear Greek-English New Testament
George Ricker Berry

Additionally, I did not cite the scripture that I compared so how could you possible know what scripture I was looking at? Please do not make assumptions because, just as you have done here, you are wrong and draw inaccurate conclusions.

And I do not appreciate being called a liar, thank you.

Actually, I studied Greek in seminary.

And, I already made note on previous pages about the number of times wine is mentioned in the bible, and the usage according to the Theological Dictionary of the NT.

And it did not take a rocket scientist to know which scripture you were referencing.

And I don't just quote books and web pages for sake of arguing either.

As a student of Koine Greek, I made mention of www.csntm.org.

Had you even bothered to reference it, you would see the Codex Sinaticus, a complete New Testament Greek manuscript that dates as far back as the 4th century.

So I have proof that I am right.

And please do not accuse me of acalling you a liar.

If you can show me please, where I said: "AmbryRye is lying" I'd be greatly apprecative.

Saying one is wrong is not saying they are lying.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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[URL="http://www.biblestudytools.com/john/2-10.html"]John 2:10[/URL]

And saith unto him
The following words; expressing the common custom used at feasts:
every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine;
that is, it is usual with men, when they make entertainments, first to give the guests the best, the most generous, and strongest bodied wine; as being most suitable for them, and they being then better able to bear it, and it being most for the credit of the maker of the feast:

and when men have well drank;
not to excess, but freely, so as that they are exhilarated; and their spirits cheerful, but their brains not intoxicated: so the word, as answering to the Hebrew word is (rkv) , used by the Septuagint in ( Genesis 43:34 ) ( Song of Solomon 5:1 ) ,


then that which is worse;
not bad wine, but (ton elassw) , "that which is lesser"; a weaker bodied wine, that is lowered, and of less strength, and not so intoxicating, and which is fittest for the guests. So Martial F26 advises Sextilianus, after he had drank the tenth cup, not to drink the best wine, but to ask his host for wine of Laletania, which was a weaker and lower sort of wine.
[But] thou hast kept the good wine until now;
which shows he knew nothing of the miracle wrought. And as the bridegroom here did, in the apprehension of the ruler of the feast, at this his marriage, so does the Lord, the husband of the church, in the marriage feast of the Gospel; and so he will do at the marriage supper of the lamb. The Gospel, which may be compared to wine for its purity, pleasant taste, and generous effects in reviving drooping spirits, refreshing weary persons, and comforting distressed minds, as also for its antiquity, was published before the coming of Christ, in the times of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and the prophets, but in a lower and weaker way; at sundry times, here a little, and there a little, by piecemeals, as it were; and in divers manners, by promises, prophecies, types, shadows, and sacrifices; and was attended with much darkness and bondage: but under the Gospel dispensation, which is compared to a marriage feast, it is more fully dispensed, more clearly published, and more freely ministered. The whole of it is delivered, and with open face beheld; and saints are made free by it; it is set in the strongest and clearest light; the best wine is reserved till now; God has provided some better thing for us, ( Hebrews 11:40 ) . And so with respect to the future state of the saints, their best things are kept for them till last. They have many good things now; as the Gospel, Gospel ordinances, the blessings, and promises of grace, the love of God shed abroad in their hearts, presence of God, and communion with Christ, at least at times; all which are better than wine: but then there is an alloy to these; they are lowered by other things, as the corruptions of the heart, the temptations of Satan, the hidings of God's face, and a variety of afflictions; but they shall have their good and best things hereafter, and drink new wine in Christ's Father's kingdom, without any thing to lower and weaken it: they will have full joys, and never fading pleasures, and shall be without sin and sorrow; no more deserted, nor afflicted, and shall be out of the reach of Satan's temptations, and with Christ for evermore. Happy are they that are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb.

John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible, John 2:10

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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