Your opinion on drinking

[Skala]

Skala is wrong; alcoholic drinks are not a gift from God. Water is a gift, the grapes are a gift, when made into a beverage it is a gift. But when man manufactures alcohol and adds it to drinks, or in the case of liquor it is almost totally alcohol, that is an insult to God to call such a substance made by man a gift of God. Arsenic, even though is is used to poison pesty rats, is also not a gift of God.

So anything that men create by mixing together things God created is necessarily bad and cannot be called a gift from God?

or just alcoholic drinks and rat poison?

Man, the list of things that match that description that you probably give thanks to God for would be outrageously big

 

[Hammster]

If arsenic can be used to poison rats, why isn't it a gift?

 

[ChristianT]

If arsenic can be used to poison rats, why isn't it a gift?

Because it can also kill humans. I actually see your point and agree with you, but just thought I'd add my own .02 denarii

 

[renewed21]

Alcoholic drinks, like all things, are gifts from God that are unfortunately abused to the point that they become sinful.

IMO, Zima was not a gift from God.

 

[faithabides]

I appreciate all the responses thus far. I am aware that Christians have different views in regards to drinking alcohol. And I am not here to judge anyone. I personally don't drink but have family and friends that do and I don't judge them or hold that against them. That is their choice. But here are just a few things to consider and possibly discuss.

In the Bible, Proverbs is the book of wisdom. It clearly states that allowing alcohol to control oneself is not wise. Many have walked down the road of "social drinking" saying that they can handle their booze, only to realize alcohol has instead "handled" them. As Christians, we are called to exercise wisdom and to allow it to guide us, not mood-altering substances. Also, those who participate in social drinking fail to consider the impact it might have on others. The Bible is clear that we are not to cause our brother to stumble.

Ephesians 5:15-18 - Paul clearly gives the command to be filled with the Holy Spirit. This command is given with the comparison and contrast of getting drunk with wine. The primary point Paul makes relates to who or what is in control of one's life. As believers, we are not to allow substances to control us. This can only happen if we avoid chemicals whose sole purpose is to alter our state of mind or emotion. We cannot be filled with the Spirit and influenced by other substances. Whatever reason one may give for using alcohol, God wants us to know that only He can fill that need completely.

Some verses to think about
Daniel 1:5, 8, 16; 10:3 Daniel refused to drink the king's wine and he was especially blessed by the Lord.

Matthew 24:48-51 Drinking is not consistent with alertness.

Luke 1:15 Greatness of John the Baptist linked with his total abstinence.

Although there are many instances of drinking in the Bible, it must be remembered that these are never held up as examples for us to follow. The whole weight of the Bible's authority is against the manifold evils of the beverage alcohol.

Just some things to consider.

 

[renewed21]

I really think that the concepts of moderation and excess also need to be considered in this discussion. Another issue is: is alcohol inherently evil/bad?

For instance, would anyone propose that soft drinks, fast food, sweets are evil/ bad, or a sin against God? How much damage has overconsumption of soft drinks, fast food, sweets caused? more than alcohol. It is just that the damage is not as acute or immediate as what nonresponsible alcohol consumption can manifest.

 

[SoulBap6]

Faithabides
I have read all of the replies as to use of Alcohol, and the scriptures Great. As a Pastor I wonder what my Congregation, would say if they saw me coming out of Bar? or smell alcohol on my breath on sunday morning. I don't think I would be the Pastor very long. I hear opinions pros and cons. I would like to share with you. I preach at a Rescue mission, I see people that are alcoholics, drug addicts and excons, priest , people who were at one time up standing citizens and they fell you say you won't fall, these same people have told me the same thing I was a social drinker or user.

You will probably say I drink but I don't get Drunk. I have heard that before! as a Christian, so that another Brother don't fall is true. I want to say this what about your Testimony. If your going to tell me this doesn't matter, and your the example and you are what example are you telling others? Don't Think about the drinking but what you are telling others. When John the Baptist Parents were told about Johns Diet, his parents were warned about alcohol, he was counted righteous. I know some won't agree, but consider the warnings in the Bible.

 

[Browneyedgirl1010]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to CF and I thought I can put in my opinion
I think that there are benefits to alcohol as well as hazards. In my opinion, I think there are more bad than good to alcohol. Yes, they say that drinking one glass of red wine a day is good for your health, but I also think of the damage that excess alcohol can do. Personally, I don't drink at all and I do believe that there were warnings about alcohol in the Bible. Thanks for reading.

 

[WinBySurrender]

why do some people think that at the wedding in Cana, that Jesus turned the water into non alcoholic wine?
I do not know the greek word that was used

Oinos, which is most assuredly alcoholic wine, aged wine (grape juice). The word for "too much wine" is oinosflugia.

also, I heard one theory that some of the gospels were first written in aremaic and then translated into greek very quickly, does anyone know if that would make a differance?

Off-topic, but briefly, they weren't. The original language was Koine Greek.

 

[SearchingStudent]

Faithabides
I have read all of the replies as to use of Alcohol, and the scriptures Great. As a Pastor I wonder what my Congregation, would say if they saw me coming out of Bar? or smell alcohol on my breath on sunday morning. I don't think I would be the Pastor very long. I hear opinions pros and cons. I would like to share with you. I preach at a Rescue mission, I see people that are alcoholics, drug addicts and excons, priest , people who were at one time up standing citizens and they fell you say you won't fall, these same people have told me the same thing I was a social drinker or user.

You will probably say I drink but I don't get Drunk. I have heard that before! as a Christian, so that another Brother don't fall is true. I want to say this what about your Testimony. If your going to tell me this doesn't matter, and your the example and you are what example are you telling others? Don't Think about the drinking but what you are telling others. When John the Baptist Parents were told about Johns Diet, his parents were warned about alcohol, he was counted righteous. I know some won't agree, but consider the warnings in the Bible.

Honestly, I believe the prohibitions against alcohol are more cultural than anything else. In the culture I grew up in, alcohol is a non-issue. I never saw anyone drunk, never gave it a second thought. However, it seems the "american" religious scene is very hung up on puritannical thought. So, therefore, what is a big deal to you is not a big deal to others.

So...if you were my pastor and I saw you coming out of a bar or out of a liquor store, I'd probably not even take notice of it.

 

[Studious One]

One only need to go to the Wedding feast and Jesus first miracle to know that the wine was not alcoholic.

Scripture tells us that Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. Since His mission was to seek and to save that which was lost, He would not have worked His first miracle by giving man that which is responsible for making men drunkards... damning their immortal souls to hell.

Had the wine at the wedding feast been alcoholic, Jesus would have been adding to man's drunkenness. Those at the feast had already "well drunk". They drank so much of the wine supplied that there was no more. So here comes Jesus, and to manifest His glory (v.11) He creates between 120 and 150 more gallons of wine for them to drink... adding to their drunkenness.

My Bible tells me that Jesus never sinned. He would have been guilty of sin had He given alcohol to those who had already well drunk.

My Jesus is not the Jesus that many want Him to be. My Jesus is pure, spotless, undefiled. He does not tempt man with sin, nor does He put anything in man's hand that could cause man to sin.

Habakkuk 2:15 (KJV) Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

 

[DeaconDean]

Scripture teaches that it's okay to drink, but not to get drunk. Anyone who says otherwise is twisting Scripture to justify their own biases. That said, if it bothers your conscience (as it does mine, me being a recovering alcoholic), don't do it. If it bothers your brother's or your sister's conscience, don't do it in their presence.

Brother, do you realize tht this is probably the first time we have agreed on anything.

I agree with you and agree that you are right.

And I totally support you in your stance from your past.

I posted earlier:

Also, we read from the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament:

"oinoV" Wine is very significant in Palestine. According to Gen. 9:20 Noah, the forefather of the new race, is also the first to cultivate the vine. In the OT there are many sayings in praise of wine. In Ju. 9:13 it is the drink which makes glad both men and gods, cf. Ps. 104:15. Fulness of wine is a special blessing from God, Gn. 27:28, 37; Jl. 2:23 f. Abstinance from wine (cf. the position of the Rechabites in Jer. 35, or Hos. 2:1014; 3:1, where wine is linked to Baal worship) is rare.

On the other hand, there are many warnings against overindulgance, cf. Is. 5:11; Prv. 20:1; 21:17; Sir. 19:1 ff.AS in the ancient world generally, wine has a cultic significance in the OT too, and there are many precise regulations for offering the sacrifice of wine (Ex. 29:38-41; Nu. 15:2-15).

In the New Testament, "oinoV" is mainly used in the literal sense of "wine," and never in a cultic relation. A charactistic of the Baptist (John) is that he abstains from wine, Lk. 1:15; cf. 7:33 (mt. 11:18). As those dedicated to God in the OT refrained from wine or intoxicating drinks (Nu. 6:3; cf. Ju. 13:4, 7), so John, fully consecrated to God, must be controlled solely by the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

In distinction from the Baptist, Jesus drank wine, as may be seen from Mt. 11:19; Lk. 7:37 (Jesus as "oinopothV"). According to Mk. 2:18-22 and par. Jesus justified His conduct on the ground that the time when the bridegroom is present is one of festivity. Jesus is more than a Nazarite; hence the corresponding OT regulations do not apply to Him. He explains this in the parable of the new wine and the old skins, Mk. 2:22 and par. The new which he brings cannot be mixed withthe old. Lk. 5:39 added the difficult saying: "[kai] oudeiV piwn palaion qelei neon: legei gar, o palaioV crhstoV estin."

In the accounts of the Last Supper, the term "oinoV" occurs neither in the Synopticts nor Paul. It is obvious, however, that according to custom Jesus was proffering wine in the cup over which He pronounced the blessing; this may be seen especially from the solemn "genhmatoV thV ampelou" (Mk. 14:25 and par.) which was borrowed from JudaismIn this final saying before the passioin Jesus looks forward triumpantly to the consumation in the kingdom of God which He often describes elsewhere (cf. Mt. 8:11; 22:1-14) in the image of a common meal.

Ibid, Vol. V, p. 162-164

The arguements used here against drinking are nothing new. In fact, I see where some are using the same arguements that were used 120 years ago.

But, if I may, here is something written recently (1990's) that agrees with what I posted earlier:

As noted in earlier, biblical support for abstinence came after the public demand for abstinence. Once Christians decided to abstain, they looked to the Bible to support their views. This, of course, is a poor method of biblical exegesis, and usually leads to poor interpretation. Unfortunately, as Christians sought abstinence in the Bible, they often took verses out of context, or otherwise misled to support their views.

First, when one examines the text, he or she will notice that the Bible mentions alcohol quite often. In fact, the Bible mentions alcohol 240 times (Hailey, 1992). Many of those references are favorable toward wine. Verses such as Neh 2:1; Est 5:6; Job 1:13; Mt 9:17; 21:33; and 1 Tim 5:23 are all casual references to wine, showing it as normal part of Hebrew life. Further, Dt 14:26; Ps 4:7; 104:15; Hos 2:8; Pro 3:10; SS 1:2; 4:10; 7:9; and Is 25:6 are all positive aspects of wine. Wine is a symbol of joy (Ps 104:15), God's blessings (Pro 9:2,5), and a worship offering to God (Ex 29:40). Hailey goes on to note that considering Jesus drank, (Lk 7:33,34; Mt 26:26-29) and that he created wine (Jn 2:1-11), "we can derive no other conclusion except that our Lord assigned positive qualities to wine" (Hailey, 1992).

However, some Baptists have tried to claim that the Bible requires abstinence. Some even contest whether Jesus created alcohol at Cana. Aubrey Hearn writes, "the view that Jesus supernaturally provided a large amount of intoxicating wine for the wedding guests has against it the general character and spirit of Jesus..." (Hearn, 1943). However, Hearn fails to consider verse ten. "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now." The master could only be speaking about alcohol. If the wine were non-alcoholic, it would not matter how much the people had to drink. They would still be able to detect the cheaper wine. However, if the wine were alcoholic, the early wine would dull their senses, so that later, they would not notice the cheaper wine.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Throughout church history, Christians have been well aware of the potential dangers of alcohol. The Bible warns about abusing alcohol. Many famous characters in history have cautioned about the seduction of alcohol. Most people had observed the effects of drunkenness. Despite these facts, most Christians still saw alcohol as an enjoyable part of life.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Bible, though warning about alcohol, also praises alcohol. It is a gift from God, given to man for our enjoyment. God blessed men with a bountiful harvest of grapes. Those whose vineyards were bare, were being judged. Alcohol was as an offering to God in the Old Testament, and a symbol of salvation in the New Testament. Biblical writers recorded that wine brought joy, and was used in celebrations.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This was true in America, until the social Temperance movement gained power. During the nineteenth century, Americans were convinced that alcohol was a scourge to the earth. Surely, God was opposed to this evil, people insisted. Eventually, people sought to prove their view, using the Bible.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some people found good reason to abstain. The Bible was clear that alcohol could be dangerous. Some biblical characters chose to abstain, or even received commands, by God, to abstain. Finally, peoples' consciences led them to believe that abstinence was best. Unfortunately, some others were not content with these reasons, alone. These Christians took their exegesis farther. Many insisted that the Bible demanded abstinence, not merely allowed it. Some teetotalers made wild and unsubstantiated claims, which their followers gladly accepted. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Within time, prohibition took over the country. Many churches and denominations led the way in prohibition. Churches passed resolutions, and signed covenants requiring abstinence. Churches excommunicated, as sinners, those who dared to disagree. So ingrained was the idea that alcohol was sinful, that it survived long after the prohibition laws were repealed. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the Southern Baptist Convention, the frenzy over prohibition became so powerful that it swept aside the doctrine of liberty. Churches no longer permitted men to interpret the Bible for themselves. While Baptist churches still claimed individual freedom, in practice, members either accepted church teachings, disobeyed in secret, or left their church.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This situation pervaded for almost a century, with little question. However, some began to dispute the church's right to demand abstinence. They pointed out the inherent discrepancy between liberty and forced conformity. Thus, a controversy developed in the Southern Baptist Convention.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Baptists have always been set apart for their strong belief in the competency of the soul. Baptists are free to seek God's direction for their individual lives. Each believer, led by the Holy Spirit, is capable and released to seek God's will. However, for the past century, the Southern Baptist Convention has been violating this basic belief. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The demand for abstinence is not only an intrusion into soul competency, it is biblically wrong. The Bible gives Christians the responsibility to choose whether to drink, or not. There is no legitimate claim that the Bible demands abstinence. The Bible gives the choice. It is time that the Southern Baptist Convention, and its churches, gave that choice back to members.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ALCOHOLIC PROHIBITION IN SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHURCHES AND ITS IMPLICATION ON THE PRIESTHOOD OF BELIEVERS, By: Bruce M. Sabin[/FONT]

Nuff said.

The wife and I usually have two drinks a year.

If I am not working on New Years Eve, we will get a bottle of champane and celebrate one more year together in the Lord.

In July, we have one bottle of champane to celebrate our anniversary. This year will make 25 years together.

Other than those two occasions, it is very, very rare for us to drink.

May God bless you in your abstinance.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[dysert]

Oinos, which is most assuredly alcoholic wine, aged wine (grape juice). The word for "too much wine" is oinosflugia.Off-topic, but briefly, they weren't. The original language was Koine Greek.

Perhaps he was thinking about parts of the OT being in Aramaic. Or that Jesus possibly spoke Aramaic?

 

[Hupomone10]

the yeast is on the outside of the grapes skin, so it will naturally ferment, alcohol does not have to be added

And how long does that take? Can one make wine in the middle of a wedding feast and have it fermented before the end of the wedding?

And for the record, I am not speaking against drinking, other than the 5 reasons we don't need to (posted previously). I am simply answering a question asked about why some people believe Jesus' wine probably wasn't alcoholic. No one can know for sure. And to be sure, there are many who because of their position toward alcohol assume it was non-alcoholic, just as there are those who because of their position that drinking is ok assume it was alcoholic. But there are also those who believe it probably wasn't alcoholic from a logical or pragmatic standpoint. And for those, it's not worth a lot of discussion; in fact I've exhausted all I wish to do.

If anyone wishes to drink, knock yourselves out. I won't judge you, you answer only to God for your behavior and your example, just as I do.

Blessings to both sides,
H.

 

[DeaconDean]

And how long does that take? Can one make wine in the middle of a wedding feast and have it fermented before the end of the wedding?

Just one counter question. (Directed at nobody in general)

If Jesus was the God-man, and if Jesus has the same attributes as the Father, would it be stupid not to say that He couldn't create wine already aged?

Kinda kills the omnipotence of Jesus the God-man don't it.

It places something totally outside His power.

Jesus could heal the sick and the lame, give sight to the blind, raise the dead, command the weather, walk on water, but He could not make wine already fermented.

And for the record brother, I read your reasons and I agree with your stance. God bless you in your firmness of conviction.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[AmbryRye]

From your first sip of alcohol, it affects your body.

It passes through your digestive system where the majority of it is absorbed into your bloodstream. Alcohol is highly water soluble so it mixes well with your blood and travels fast, penetrating cells and coursing through your body - where it reaches your brain.

In the brain, it can damage cells and wreak havoc, but it is worse with heavy drinkers. "Light" drinkers, however, still experience alcohol's neurological effects which translate to spiritual impairments.

Studies have shown that just 1 glass of wine affects a person's motor skills and affects their driving.

However, what I find most alarming is that it decreases a person's inhibitions (you get that "relaxed" feeling) and that can be dangerous. You can do things your normally would not do, say things you normally would not say. But you are also more vulnerable to spiritual attack and influences from those who are not following God.

You might think you are in control, but once that alcohol hits your bloodstream (with the first sip), it is the one in control.

This is in addition to your Christian responsibility to not cause your brother to stumble.

I say no alcohol at all. If you need to relax, try prayer or quiet Christian music.

But doing what I described above to a body that is not even my own, but a Temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19) is not a good thing.

And one sip is all it takes to set it all in motion.

I say teetotaler all the way.

 

[sheina]

From your first sip of alcohol, it affects your body.

It passes through your digestive system where the majority of it is absorbed into your bloodstream. Alcohol is highly water soluble so it mixes well with your blood and travels fast, penetrating cells and coursing through your body - where it reaches your brain.

In the brain, it can damage cells and wreak havoc, but it is worse with heavy drinkers. "Light" drinkers, however, still experience alcohol's neurological effects which translate to spiritual impairments.

Studies have shown that just 1 glass of wine affects a person's motor skills and affects their driving.

However, what I find most alarming is that it decreases a person's inhibitions (you get that "relaxed" feeling) and that can be dangerous. You can do things your normally would not do, say things you normally would not say. But you are also more vulnerable to spiritual attack and influences from those who are not following God.

You might think you are in control, but once that alcohol hits your bloodstream (with the first sip), it is the one in control.

This is in addition to your Christian responsibility to not cause your brother to stumble.

I say no alcohol at all. If you need to relax, try prayer or quiet Christian music.

But doing what I described above to a body that is not even my own, but a Temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19) is not a good thing.

And one sip is all it takes to set it all in motion.

I say teetotaler all the way.

Excellent post!

 

[AmbryRye]

Excellent post!

Thank you, sister!

 

[dies-l]

From your first sip of alcohol, it affects your body.

It passes through your digestive system where the majority of it is absorbed into your bloodstream. Alcohol is highly water soluble so it mixes well with your blood and travels fast, penetrating cells and coursing through your body - where it reaches your brain.

In the brain, it can damage cells and wreak havoc, but it is worse with heavy drinkers. "Light" drinkers, however, still experience alcohol's neurological effects which translate to spiritual impairments.

Studies have shown that just 1 glass of wine affects a person's motor skills and affects their driving.

However, what I find most alarming is that it decreases a person's inhibitions (you get that "relaxed" feeling) and that can be dangerous. You can do things your normally would not do, say things you normally would not say. But you are also more vulnerable to spiritual attack and influences from those who are not following God.

You might think you are in control, but once that alcohol hits your bloodstream (with the first sip), it is the one in control.

This is in addition to your Christian responsibility to not cause your brother to stumble.

I say no alcohol at all. If you need to relax, try prayer or quiet Christian music.

But doing what I described above to a body that is not even my own, but a Temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19) is not a good thing.

And one sip is all it takes to set it all in motion.

I say teetotaler all the way.

That's fine as a personal conviction, but to say that drinking alcohol is inherently immoral would be to call Jesus a sinner and undermine the entirety of Gospel.

 

[AmbryRye]

That's fine as a personal conviction, but to say that drinking alcohol is inherently immoral would be to call Jesus a sinner and undermine the entirety of Gospel.

The wine that Jesus drank and turned the water into is not the same as the wine we have today.

When reading the interlinear Greek-English New Testament, we see that there is a different word for "wine" in the scripture where Jesus turned water into wine and scripture that talks about wine in a negative light.

When you break down the meaning of these different words, one means unfermented wine (it even refers to the grapes on the vine as unfermented wine) and there is fermented wine (the kind that gets you drunk).

I do not know why English translations did not see it necessary to make the distinction, but it is there in black and white.

Jesus was not dealing with an alcoholic wine, but more like a grape juice syrup.