you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

[HisKid1973]

Hi Uphill Battle,
The first Christians were very Evangelical in nature.

..yepper..Peter had one street meeting where 3,000 entered the church in one day from one outreach meeting..they were born anew..No waiting , no special program to go through..peace to you dear sister in Christ..

 

[Theophorus]

then stop misusing it.

I stand by my statement.

I have my reasons. Why is yours unhinged?

see below.

I assume you know how to read, where did you miss the point that it was an expression? Cursed? I only remember one person actually doing that. And I can't reproduce it, it was in a PM, and long deleted. But that wasn't the point. I used it as an expression. If that escapes you, I can't help you understand it. It IS rather basic.

Let's add bleating goat to your derogatory comments and personal attacks. But we should excuse them because:

You know sour grapes even before they appear.
Experience has taught you, not actual statements in the thread.
It's a figure of speech to describe your correct world view.
It was because of a PM, that you allowed to influence a public statement.
You have a powerful ability to predict people against you.
You assume that people will curse you for a position.
You are merely editorializing.
It is just an expression.

then we are on even ground. Not much of what you say means more than I would give credence to a bleating goat. I'm done speaking with you. Ciao.

I would not have much to do with a bigoted, bleating goat either.

I'm still trying to figure out the bigot, or was it bigots, part, though.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

..yepper..Peter had one street meeting where 3,000 entered the church in one day from one outreach meeting..they were born anew..No waiting , no special program to go through..peace to you dear sister in Christ..

Yepperz. A mighty "perverse" generation at that time.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Acts 2:40 And, with many different words, bare he frail witness, and went on exhorting them saying--"Be saved from the generation/geneaV <1074> of the perverse/crooked/skoliaV <4646>, this"
41 They, therefore, who welcomed his word, were immersed; and there were added, on that day, about three thousand souls.

Matt 12:42 `A queen of the south shall be being aroused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this, and shall be condemning it/her. That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and lo, more of Solomon here!

 

[E.C.]

Uphill, did you not see the questions I posted on page twenty-four at post number 235?

These ones aren't rhetorical.

Linkage:http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=44747142&postcount=235

 

[E.C.]

..yepper..Peter had one street meeting where 3,000 entered the church in one day from one outreach meeting..they were born anew..No waiting , no special program to go through..peace to you dear sister in Christ..

Its called security. When you're being persecuted, you don't let just anybody come on in. With the various heresies coming up every now and then, than you need to make sure the person coming in believes that which is correct rather than that which is wrong.

I see so many heresies resurrect themselves within Protestantism. Chiliasm seems to be a popular one. As is Nestorianism.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Its called security. When you're being persecuted, you don't let just anybody come on in. With the various heresies coming up every now and then, than you need to make sure the person coming in believes that which is correct rather than that which is wrong.

I see so many heresies resurrect themselves within Protestantism. Chiliasm seems to be a popular one. As is Nestorianism.

I also view amillennialism as a heresy.

http://www.gotquestions.org/amillennialism.html

The amillennial view comes from using one method of interpretation for unfulfilled prophecy and another one for non-prophetic Scripture and fulfilled prophecy. Non-prophetic Scripture and fulfilled prophecy are interpreted literally or normally.
Therefore, the amillennialist will assign different meanings to those parts of Scripture than the normal, contextual meanings of those words.

 

[WarriorAngel]

..yepper..Peter had one street meeting where 3,000 entered the church in one day from one outreach meeting..they were born anew..No waiting , no special program to go through..peace to you dear sister in Christ..

That's sort of not true, sort of true.

Peter did make them all be baptised.
SO yea, they did have to do something.

BUT...the Church was not only sparkling new, but in order to preserve the Church with likeminded faithful, you will find by the time St Justin Martyr wrote, which was in 130 AD, he made it quite certain that only those who did believe as they taught would be able to receive the Body and Blood of Christ.

And you will also find alot more of the Liturgy as they met on the Lord's Day to break THIS Bread.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm
This is the link to the Didache...written by the Apostles..even tho not added into scriptures.

Chapter 4.&#8212;Various Precepts

1. My child, him that speaks to you the word of God remember night and day; and you shall honour him as the Lord; for in the place whence lordly rule is uttered, there is the Lord. 2. And you shall seek out day by day the faces of the saints, in order that you may rest upon their words.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
11. And ye bondmen shall be subject to your masters as to a type of God, in modesty and fear.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
14. In the church you shall acknowledge your transgressions, and you shall not come near for your prayer with an evilconscience. This is the way of life.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chapter 5.&#8212;The Way of Death

1. And the way of death is this;
........2. persecutors of the good, hating truth, loving a lie, not knowing a reward for righteousness, not cleaving to good nor to righteous judgment..
~~~~~

Chapter 6.&#8212;Against False Teachers, and Food Offered to Idols

1. See that no one cause you to err from this way of the Teaching, since apart from God it teaches you.
~~~~~~~~~~~

5. But let no one eat or drink of your Thanksgiving (Eucharist), but they who have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, Give not that which is holy to the dogs.

~~~~
Chapter 11.&#8212;Concerning Teachers, Apostles, and Prophets

1. Whosoever, therefore, comes and teaches you all these things that have been said before, receive him. 2. But if the teacher himself turn and teach another doctrine to the destruction of this, hear him not;

~~~
11. And every prophet, provedtrue, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world,

~~~~

Chapter 14.&#8212;Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day

1. But every Lord's day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. 2. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. 3. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations.
~~~

Chapter 15.&#8212;Bishops and Deacons; Christian Reproof

1. Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers
~~~~~~~~~

7. yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. 8. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

~~~~~~~~~

Good read...which happens to be a teaching for the Church and for the men who would be teachers of the Church. THIS was not written ONLY for the laity...but for Bishops and the priesthood.

SO yes...indeed, THEY had rules, laws and so forth.

This is but a taste of what they taught the men they choose to follow the Lord in the priesthood.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That's sort of not true, sort of true.

Eh?

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm
This is the link to the Didache...written by the Apostles..even tho not added into scriptures.

Then that is reason enough for me to avoid that site.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Eh?

Then that is reason enough for me to avoid that site.

Whew...

DID I NOT say the Apostles wrote it??

SO you would avoid what the Apostles wrote because the CHURCH didnt see the need to add it into canon??

Wowzer.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Eh?

Whew...

DID I NOT say the Apostles wrote it??

SO you would avoid what the Apostles wrote because the CHURCH didnt see the need to add it into canon??

Wowzer.

Hi WA!! What's wrong with just studying on the 66 books in the Canon that we have now?
I could probably spend 100yrs just on the OC book of Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 37:10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army. 11 Then He said to me, "Son of adam, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'

Luke 2:34 and Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, `Lo, this [one] is set for the falling and resurrection/anastasin <386> of many in Israel, and for a sign spoken against--

Reve 11:11 And after the three days and half equal, a spirit/breath of life out of the God came into/in them and they stand on their feet and great fear falls upon the ones beholding them.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Hi WA!! What's wrong with just studying on the 66 books in the Canon that we have now?
I could probably spend 100yrs just on the OC book of Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 37:10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army. 11 Then He said to me, "Son of adam, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'

Luke 2:34 and Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, `Lo, this [one] is set for the falling and resurrection/anastasin <386> of many in Israel, and for a sign spoken against--

Ask yourself...what's wrong with NOT wanting to study or read everything the Apostles wrote?

Chapter 5.—The Way of Death

1. And the way of death is this;
........2. persecutors of the good, hating truth, loving a lie, not knowing a reward for righteousness, not cleaving to good nor to righteous judgment..

 

[Montalban]

something in the book struck a cord with me, regarding the religious observances of Christians, and their place in our lives. And the more and more and more I read it, the more I realized one of the primary reasons I simply cannot accept the claims of some of the churches out there, why I could not see myself being what they are, or doing what they do.
ciao.

Paul tells the Corinthians that the Eucharist is not just a 'communal meal'
1 Corinthians 11:34
If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment. And when I come I will give further directions.

It's more than that.

 

[Tonks]

given the response, I'm REALLY regretting saying anything about this.

I'm always in the mood for a book recommendation. The problem with these sorts of discussions is that they always seem to pretend one of two things...in an order not suggesting primacy but merely for ease of discussion:

1) that Christianity hit a certain point and "stopped" hundreds upon hundreds of years ago or

2) authentic Christianity winked into existence recently given a relative rediscovery of "Biblical purity"

Both points are incorrect - the second even moreso. Many of these discussions involve the rather silly quest for the modern incarnation of the "New Testament Church" and - by extension - the attendant faith and purity of those that have discovered such.

Christianity did not develop in a vacuum. Indeed, one of its organizing principles is that throughout its history it has been written about...extensively.

In many cases people confuse the search for some biblically authentic spirituality with a search for verifiable, historical fact. This, unfortunately, takes the discussion completely off the rails.

Early Christian worship was liturgical. There really is no way of getting around that fact. Further, those that claim - in terms of liturgy / worship - that the Bible is the ultimate arbiter of the "New Testament" church are completely misapplying the lessons that the Reformation wrought. It was, amongst other things, tradition viewed through the Bible and where the two differed the Bible trumped. Indeed...take a look at the various churches that were birthed out of the Reformation and - by and large - they are quite liturgical. Particular practices that were found to be "anti-Biblical" were removed but the general framework remained. I think that it can be quite clearly asserted that the original Reformers did not find anything in the Bible which prohibited liturgical worship in favor of anything else...indeed the evidence is quite to the contrary.

Instead of trying to make hay over some sort of false Bibliohistorical case for "modern, non-liturgical worship" when the case made by written evidence - by members of many, many different denominations - is so clearly stacked against the argument the proper route should be a theological one. Using the Bible as evidence as some sort of guide to approved forms of worship simply makes people look stupid.

When trying to discover the "New Testament" church it is helpful to remember that we're not living in 65AD, we're not in old Jerusalem and we're clearly not the Apostles. Unfortunately in the crucible of modern Christianity many people make the mistake of trying to discover a more authentic spirituality by studying the faith as it exists now while trying to deduce what it looked like before. Much of this, unfortunately, is undertaken or written about by people that never made it out of history 101...all while trying to write some book reflective of history.

The Church is a living, dynamic organism, the living Body of Christ. It is visible, recognizable, authentic. The various specifics of doctrine, worship, and governance are not abstracts that are lost to antiquity but are knowable today.

The Bible tells one how to be a Christian...it is not a definitive tome regarding proper worship anymore than it is an instruction manual on how to tie your shoes.

 

[Montalban]

I'm always in the mood for a book recommendation. The problem with these sorts of discussions is that they always seem to pretend one of two things...in an order not suggesting primacy but merely for ease of discussion:

1) that Christianity hit a certain point and "stopped" hundreds upon hundreds of years ago or

2) authentic Christianity winked into existence recently given a relative rediscovery of "Biblical purity"

Both points are incorrect

If you're going to come along with a brand new way of viewing things then one thing that has to happen is to pretend that what exists is false and your new way is the return to what once existed. That's why Protestants argue the church failed c.300 (under Constantine - usually the culprit).

Protestants aren't alone in doing this. Mormons, Moslems, Baha'i all with new messages come along with an idea that they're simply preaching what once was believed.

 

[GenemZ]

It would seem to me that you're confusing worship with fellowship. Jesus and his apostles were faithful, practicing Jews. Their lives were rich in traditional, liturgical style worship because they were faithful to their tradition. The Last Supper was a celebration of the Jewish passover seder meal. I'd be willing to bet it was 'by the book'.

By the book? Passover is to be one of the most relaxed ceremonies that Jews had been given to celebrate. It is the celebration of their emancipation from slavery in Egypt.

The last thing they wanted to do was to get bogged down with a slavery to details. Since Jews today are not regenerate, it does not resemble the type of atmosphere that took place at the Last Supper. A Sedar which consisted of all born again Jews (minus Judas).

Passover has a protocol to it. Some details are exacting, of course. But it is to be very relaxed. There is a spoken tradition during the Sedar that even asks why we drink more wine than usual on that night. Hardly liturgical. Save that for the Day of Atonement.

Jews back then had various joyous celebrations and even dancing in many festivals. That is, until later years after the Pharisee's in Jesus day had turned Judaism into a dead religion. And, it was evident also during various times of Jewish apostasy. Those Jewish celebrations had also became by rote.

What Jesus was clear on was the ritual was nothing without the right heart.

Ritual without reality is religion. Christianity is NOT a religion. Its about having a growing living relationship with the Father, through Christ.

Certain denominations have turned Christianity into a religion, and many today assume that its Christianity. But, true Christianity back then met in the homes of believers, with men who had been given the gift to teach, leading worship and Bible study. It was informal. It was relaxed because those who taught were competent to teach. Not simply having the gift of gab like many "preacher boys" are like today.

As a young Jew growing up, one of the criticisms I heard about Christianity (as they saw it), was about how stiff they are in ceremony. Of course, that spoke mostly in reference to legalism and religion in the name of Christ they had been exposed to.

Legalism is a vain willful attempt to fill in the vacuum in the soul that is caused by a lack of spiritual fulfillment. A fulfillment that could only come by acquiring a sound knowledge of truth, and understanding of that truth by grace.

Legalism in contrast, is a willful attempt to provide for self meaning to one's meaninglessness. Legalism produces at best, pseudo fulfillment.

Its an system which is devised by men to implore others to become preoccupied with achieving certain promoted goals, as to get men's minds off of their emptiness, and onto seeking the approval of others by achieving certain prescribed goals.

Jesus hated legalism and dead formality. He wanted to show us how to have a relationship with the Father through himself.

Most Christianity does not even come close. They speak of Jesus as if he were standing afar. What Jesus wanted us to grow into, was to be able to look inside and to discover he's there.

He is the Word that was made flesh. We need the Word hidden in our hearts in order to have in our spirit what is needed for Christ to reveal Himself to us. For we can only see Christ through his Word. The Spirit without us having truth learned can only groan for us.

Ritual and liturgy can not reveal Christ to believers. Its can only promote primitive religious feelings and drives which are innate to men who now invoke the name of Christ, for what used to be directed towards pagan gods.

I do not know why I got onto this ramble... But, I know I was suppose to.

Ramble switch off.


Grace and peace, GeneZ




.

 

[Tonks]

If you're going to come along with a brand new way of viewing things then one thing that has to happen is to pretend that what exists is false and your new way is the return to what once existed. That's why Protestants argue the church failed c.300 (under Constantine - usually the culprit).

Protestants aren't alone in doing this. Mormons, Moslems, Baha'i all with new messages come along with an idea that they're simply preaching what once was believed.

I'm agreeing with you...just a bit more subtley. I find the whole exercise noxious. The Church of Christ as instituted by the Apostles is alive and well here on earth, is liturgical etc etc.

 

[Tonks]

Ritual and liturgy can not reveal Christ to believers. Its can only promote primitive religious feelings and drives which are innate to men who now invoke the name of Christ, for what used to be directed towards pagan gods.

Christ wouldn't recongize most of the empty, error filled, happy clappy "worship" that exists today. As a matter of fact he'd probably turn and flee as it is not of Him even if it sounds like it talks about him.

 

[Montalban]

just a bit more subtley.

I had to look that up

I find the whole exercise noxious. The Church of Christ as instituted by the Apostles is alive and well here on earth, is liturgical etc etc.

It's amazing that disparate religions share that common thread; claims of previous apostasy.

 

[Montalban]

Luke 6:46
[ The Wise and Foolish Builders ] "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

By the book?

Which book?

The last thing they wanted to do was to get bogged down with a slavery to details.

Where did Paul say "Go do your own thing"?

Passover has a protocol to it.

Christians don't celebrate Passover.

Ritual without reality is religion. Christianity is NOT a religion. Its about having a growing living relationship with the Father, through Christ.

That's like a 'touchy-feely' Jesus who's your own personal life-coach!

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Certain denominations have turned Christianity into a religion, and many today assume that its Christianity. But, true Christianity back then met in the homes of believers, with men who had been given the gift to teach, leading worship and Bible study.

I don't doubt that they met in houses, but as noted in a previous post wherein I cited 1 Corinthians Paul says if you want a 'meal' eat at home. They gathered to worship together. They didn't do Bible study because there was no Bible as we know it today

It was informal. It was relaxed because those who taught were competent to teach. Not simply having the gift of gab like many "preacher boys" are like today.

All you have to do is ignore Paul. Here it is again...
1 Corinthians 11:34
If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment. And when I come I will give further directions.

Legalism is a vain willful attempt to fill in the vacuum in the soul that is caused by a lack of spiritual fulfillment. A fulfillment that could only come by acquiring a sound knowledge of truth, and understanding of that truth by grace.

Show me where Paul said "Ignore your leaders, go work it out for yourself".

I think you'll find the opposite is true. All his letters to different churches are to communities of people, not just invididuals. They call on the people to unity of faith and worship.

 

[benedictaoo]

I see. So not one Jot or Tittle. I suppose that means that you don't wear cotton polyester blends... and you don't eat shellfish or pork.... you know, those troublesome jots and tittles your talking about.

Okay UpHIll- that darn Jesus.... he just contradicts Himself all over the place, huh?

You can't use scripture to disprove scripture. Use Paul against Jesus. This is something you bible only's do a lot.

You are confusing what is no longer unlawful and what is no longer unclean with the liturgy (the worship and sacrificed God asked for)- Jesus fulfilled it, did not do away with it.

You have a huge problem that you are ignoring. Reconcile what Jesus said with your personal interpretations. With what Paul said.

I did not come to destroy but to fulfil. The Jew's problem UpHill was that Jesus was dividing their ppl, that Jesus was taking away their covenant with God ut he assured them, He said, I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. He is the promised Messiah that Isiah spoke about.

You show me buddy boy, where Isiah ever said Jesus was coming to destroy?

Jesus said out of His own mouth that He was not coming to destroy but to fulfill and you say he came and destroyed...

you supposedly know more than me.. you COULD look it up.

but here.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

now go ahead and tell me how the Catholic interpretation means something else.

Of course there is no Jew or Greek, we have all been grafted into one Body.

Dude, I asked you to show me your scripture that says you have been grafted into one vine of fellowship... where is THAT in the bible.

OrthodoxyUSA is right, this is just another attempt to deny the Eucharist.