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Hey, LLoJGreetings Thekla. Does that come from the greek word used in this passage?
edit to add:I may go to TAW and ask them about this as I am not as good with the Greek as the Orthodox appear to be.
Reve 22:3 And every anathema/kat-anaqema <2652> not shall be longer, and the throne of the God, and of the Lamb-kin in her shall be. And the bond-servents/douloi <1401> of Him shall-be-offering-divine-service/latreusousin <3000> (5692) to Him.
Ok. This will likely come across as offensive to some people, but that is not my intent. I simply need to get something off my chest, and discuss it. I sincerely hope that nobody is offended, and if they are, understand that I am not doing this to condemn or poke, but to express a very legitimate and deep feeling that I feel I have to share.
I have been reading a book called Blue like Jazz, by Donald Miller. I doubt it's circulated among Catholics and EO much. But that aside, it is a brilliant piece of writing.
something in the book struck a cord with me, regarding the religious observances of Christians, and their place in our lives. And the more and more and more I read it, the more I realized one of the primary reasons I simply cannot accept the claims of some of the churches out there, why I could not see myself being what they are, or doing what they do.
and it boils down to liturgical service.
I feel that there is a disconnect between what was, and is. The claim is, hey, this is how Christians always worshipped. They did the divine liturgy, or this mass, or that form. (This is not intended to single out any one church. Each of the liturgical style churches has their own, and belive it to be the right way, and the way it's always been done.)
but looking in the bible, it is a very different picture. We are to imitate Christ, are we not? What do we see there? How they gather? How he taught? It wasn't the same thing, week in, week, out. It wasn't formulaic. It wasn't prescribed. It was esoteric, it was impactful it was INFORMAL. Men and women sitting in the grass while the Master blessed them with heavenly truth. The broken being healed by his hands. Eating together, reclining together, discussing. Inviting sinners to join in on all but the Bread and wine.
IF the claim is true, that the early church worshipped in exactly the same style as they always have, a dramatic, complete, and sudden shift in they way things had been done, must have happened shortly after the ascension. I can't see any other way. To go from footwashings and sharing a meal, or simply praying together in someones home, to candle lighting, censor swinging, Icon carrying methods doesn't happen overnight.
I do not believe that that is how it was done in the early church. I cannot see it. The only think I can conclude is that it developed over time, until a method of religious ritual was settled on, and that it stuck, and that is what continues to this day (with, of course, subtle changes from time to time, but that is a separate issue.)
there, I've unburdened.... now I expect I'll be shouted down for it, but I felt I had to say it.
ciao.
Hmm interesting. What did St James think of the book of Revelation then?The litugry written by St James shows the Apostles kept the Jewish practice of the liturgy...
Except of course the Eucharist, and NT readings and Gospel. [etc etc] Were from the New Covenant.
Hmm interesting. What did St James think of the book of Revelation then?
Acts 23:14 Who-any toward coming to the Chief-priests and to the Elders say "to-anathema/anaqemati <331> we anathemtize/aneqematisamen <332> (5656) ourselves of no yet nothing to taste till of which we may be killing the Paul.
Reve 22:3 and every anathema/kat-anaqema <2652> not shall be still. And the throne of the God/YHWH and of the Lamb-kin/Word in Her shall be, and His bond-servants shall be offering divine-service to Him.
Hmm interesting. What did St James think of the book of Revelation then?
Acts 23:14 Who-any toward coming to the Chief-priests and to the Elders say "to-anathema/anaqemati <331> we anathemtize/aneqematisamen <332> (5656) ourselves of no yet nothing to taste till of which we may be killing the Paul.
Reve 22:3 and every anathema/kat-anaqema <2652> not shall be still. And the throne of the God/YHWH and of the Lamb-kin/Word in Her shall be, and His bond-servants shall be offering divine-service to Him.
Didn't he know John who appears to be the author of it?St. James was martyred before it was written.
Forgive me..
Didn't he know John who appears to be the author of it?
The vision could have happened before he was martyred and could have been spoken to those following JESUS. Just curious.
http://www.scripture4all.org/
Revelation 1:1 An un-covering of Jesus Christ,which gives to Him, the God/YHWH, to show to the bond-servants of Him, what is binding to be becoming in swiftness. And He signifies having commissioned thru the messengerof Him, to the bond-servant of Him, John
Just noticed you added this.St. James was martyred before it was written.
Edit to add... The Liturgy of St. James was not written "by" St. James. I was the form used by St. James (taught to him by Christ) and is attributed to his leitourgia as he prayed it and died for doing so, in the Temple, before being thrown from the roof.
Forgive me..
Ok thanks. That depends on how one views the "patmos" in revelation as I care not when or where it was "visioned" but what it is representing both to the Jews and non-Jews. Peace.He did know John.
But John's exile to Patmos was far late in Johns life...
St. James died before the Temple had been destroyed.
Forgive me...
He is actually one of our own Church leaders, Jerusalem's first bishop in fact. Somehow, one would think the archaeologists would come and interview one of us before conducting their investigation . . .
James was actually the son of Joseph the Betrothed from a previous marriage. Pseudepigraphical works like the "History of Joseph the Carpenter" presents a picture of Joseph, the foster-father of Jesus, that is different from that which is traditional in the Catholic West.
Joseph, in the East, is not the virile, young virginal man that we see portrayed in the images of, for example, the Shrine of St Joseph of Mont-Royal at Montreal, Quebec.
The East sees Joseph has an elderly man with children from a previous marriage and who acts as guardian to the Virgin Mary and her Child, Jesus.
Cousins and half-brothers are not distinguished in many languages, including Hebrew and Ukrainian. Everyone is a "brother" or a "sister!"
James has always been affectionately called by the Church as "Brother of the Lord" or even "Brother of God."
James or Jacob was also very pious, as one would expect given the example of his father, Joseph the Carpenter.
He was, in fact, a "Nazorite" or a Jew who practiced monastic-like austerities such as abstinence from all wine, letting his hair grow etc. in accordance with the rules of consecration of the Old Covenant.
He came to believe in his Brother, Jesus, and became a prominent member of the Jerusalem Christian community, whose first bishop he became.
His strict Nazorite Judaism continued in James' Christian life. The Judaic Rite of the Apostolic Church of Jerusalem included many Jewish religious observances that outwardly made these Christians virtually indistinguishable from the pious Jews of their time.
For example, they would participate in the Temple worship and practices, something even St Paul, the greatest critic of imposing such on Gentile Christian converts, did.
The Christians of Jerusalem celebrated the Liturgy of the Word, or first part of their Eucharistic Liturgy, in the Temple, and only then retired to a designated location to continue with the Liturgy of the Eucharist and Holy Communion.
St James headed the Council of the Apostles in Jerusalem and his word carried great authority as we see in the 15th chapter of the Acts of the Apostles.
The fasts of Wednesday and Friday and the rule of prayer at least three times daily were established at that Council, among others, practices the Orthodox Christian Church continues to scrupulously observe and maintain to this day.
James' liturgy influenced the development of others and it is still the daily liturgy of the Oriental Orthodox Churches. The Eastern Orthodox Churches now celebrate the Greek form of the Liturgy of St James on his feast day or November 5th more widely than ever before. It is also celebrated by others on the Sunday after the Nativity, a second feast of St James and sometimes a third time that is designated by a monastery's Archimandrite.
Intimations of this liturgy are already contained in the Acts of the Apostles, as Fr. Peter Gillquist and others of the Evangelical Orthodox group in the Antiochian Orthodox Church have shown through their excellent scriptural studies. "Leiturgoukon" as Fr. Gillquist wrote in "Becoming Orthodox" is how the Acts described the Apostles at worship - "And you don't even have to know Greek to know what that word means!"
When the Christians grew in strength and numbers, certain Pharisees looked to James to speak to them and tell them to return to the Judaism of their ancestors. Again, they seem not to have had any idea as to the fact that James was actually the head of the Church of Jerusalem as its first bishop!
Placed high on the Temple ramparts, James, instead, rallied the Christians around the Name of Christ and preached to others to have faith in Him as well!
His shocked onlookers then simply pushed James off the Temple to make him quiet . . .
Falling to the stone below, James was done to death by additional stoning.
Greetings Ortho. Others mention the Orthodox and Catholics practicing a type of "Judaism" and as one poster said, OC Judaism was FULFILLED and that is what Revelation is showing in my humble view.Are you just going to accept that St. James was thrown from the roof of the Temple for offering the cup of Christ?
It's not biblical, why would you accept my telling you something like that. Is it not because you recognize Holy Tradition, and know it to be true even if the scriptures are silent about it?
Forgive me...
Absolutley agree.Ok. This will likely come across as offensive to some people, but that is not my intent. I simply need to get something off my chest, and discuss it. I sincerely hope that nobody is offended, and if they are, understand that I am not doing this to condemn or poke, but to express a very legitimate and deep feeling that I feel I have to share.
I have been reading a book called Blue like Jazz, by Donald Miller. I doubt it's circulated among Catholics and EO much. But that aside, it is a brilliant piece of writing.
something in the book struck a cord with me, regarding the religious observances of Christians, and their place in our lives. And the more and more and more I read it, the more I realized one of the primary reasons I simply cannot accept the claims of some of the churches out there, why I could not see myself being what they are, or doing what they do.
and it boils down to liturgical service.
I feel that there is a disconnect between what was, and is. The claim is, hey, this is how Christians always worshipped. They did the divine liturgy, or this mass, or that form. (This is not intended to single out any one church. Each of the liturgical style churches has their own, and belive it to be the right way, and the way it's always been done.)
but looking in the bible, it is a very different picture. We are to imitate Christ, are we not? What do we see there? How they gather? How he taught? It wasn't the same thing, week in, week, out. It wasn't formulaic. It wasn't prescribed. It was esoteric, it was impactful it was INFORMAL. Men and women sitting in the grass while the Master blessed them with heavenly truth. The broken being healed by his hands. Eating together, reclining together, discussing. Inviting sinners to join in on all but the Bread and wine.
IF the claim is true, that the early church worshipped in exactly the same style as they always have, a dramatic, complete, and sudden shift in they way things had been done, must have happened shortly after the ascension. I can't see any other way. To go from footwashings and sharing a meal, or simply praying together in someones home, to candle lighting, censor swinging, Icon carrying methods doesn't happen overnight.
I do not believe that that is how it was done in the early church. I cannot see it. The only think I can conclude is that it developed over time, until a method of religious ritual was settled on, and that it stuck, and that is what continues to this day (with, of course, subtle changes from time to time, but that is a separate issue.)
there, I've unburdened.... now I expect I'll be shouted down for it, but I felt I had to say it.
ciao.
Hi. Is that any reason for Christians to view the RCC in Revelation instead of those OC Pharicees?Absolutley agree.
We have made a new religion where none was needed, or wanted by God. We have ignored what Christ hammered on the pharisees for and taken up their place.
Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the Tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having rest Day and Night those worshipping the Wild-Beast,........
I suppose we should stop singing the Psalms now, and quit attending prayer services too. I'll contact Antioch and Jerusalam later today and let them know....
I don't know, you'll have to ask someone who tries to inject the rcc into Revelations.Hi. Is that any reason for Christians to view the RCC in Revelation instead of those OC Pharicees?
Matt 23:15 "Woe to ye scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! that ye are going-about the Sea and the Dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638), ye are making him a son of geennhV <1067> twofold-more of-ye.
Ok. But understand also the RCC and Orthodox have their own differences of Revelation and when one says "judaism" is fulfilled, in what way was it fulfilled? Peace.I don't know, you'll have to ask someone who tries to inject the rcc into Revelations.
I'd be inclined to see that verse as referencing all pharisaic peoples regardless of denominations and era. They're all wrong.
Hi Trento. I just saw this post and will bring it up again.Read the Apologia of Justin Martyr 180 AD instead of some knucklhead who has no concept of Christian history.He explains the Christian Liturgy to the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D and how it was passed down by Jesus and the Apostles
For Catholic and Orthodox, our Churches are permeated with the Odor of Sanctity because ours is not only the Worship Prophesied by Malachias, it is the Worship Malachias Prophesied and Perfected by Jesus and He Commanded His Apostles to Worship this way as The Way until the end of time.
At a Catholic Mass/Orthodox Divine Liturgy, it is the action of Jesus, as Priest, Victim, Meal, which is the focus and essence of Worship.
In a protestant service, it is solely the action of man - reading and commenting upon scripture and singing hymns and praising God. Now, there is nothing wrong with that. HOWEVER, there IS something wrong in that Our Lord and Saviour has been excised from the exercise. Protestants tells us the works of man are bloody rags. By their own words they are condemned. Their service is solely about the work of man (bloody rags)as the protestant progenitors jettisoned the Sacrifice, Priesthood, Eucharist and rejected Apostolic Succession, Eucharist, Mass etc.
Protestant services are man made and they were created to supplant the Sacrifice of the Mass. Sadly, protestants do not have a Sacrificial Worship.
It is, IOW, worship unacceptable to God.
Worship acceptable to God is the Worship Jesus Himself Commanded. His Last Supper/First Mass is the Pluperfect Sacrifice of the New Covenant and it is the Heavenly Banquet of the New Covenant
the 16th century revolutionaries rejected the Sacrifice of the Mass and substituted songs and sermons in its place.
Malchias 1 prophesied a perfect Sacrifice and Oblation - the prot revolutionaries falsified Holy Writ, excised Sacrifice and Oblation and substituted words congruent with their non-sacrificial ideology - and Jesus Commanded that Sacrificial Worship via the Eucharist continue until the end of time.
the prot revolutionaries thought Jesus was wrong in Commanding us to Worship God as He Commanded. He had to decrease. They had to increase
A the Lasst Supper, and in the Mass/Divine Liturgy, Jesus, as both priest and victim, offers Himself to God as an act of propitiation and we Redeemed Christians, gathered at the altar with the Ordained Priest, offer our lives - works, joys, sufferings etc - and our Sacrifice, matched with Jesus' PluPerfect Sacrifice is thereby made acceptable to God and innumerable Angels, gathered about the altar, take our Sacrifice to the Altar in Heaven. meanwhile, on the other side of town...songs and a sermon.
The Mass is well framed in the last chapter of Luke:
"their hearts were burning in their breasts as He explained Scripture to them"....and they asked Him to "remain with them" and He answered their request and ... "they recognized Him in the breaking of the bread."
The two parts of the Mass are the reading and explanation of the Scriptures (the Old Testament and/or the Epistles, the Psalms, and the Gospel), followed by words of Consecration and the Breaking of the Bread.
We recognize Him in the "breaking of the Bread" and the reception of his Body, Blood , Soul and Divinty in the Eucharist. In this way, by Word and Sacrament, He fulfills our desire for Him to "remain with us."
And up to this day, He does so, at all hours around all the world.
I guess you don't want a serious discussion. No wonder you have to keep asking "forgive me"....
... I still say the Orthodox and RCC practice a form of OC judaism...
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