you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

[E.C.]

The last time I walked into a Catholic Church, the only thing I felt was a brick hitting my head. It sure hurt.

I don't put much stock in feeling things - I feel good things at concerts, at musical recitals when a really inspiring violinist steps up on stage, or when someone plays a really wicked solo on an acoustic 12 string guitar. I don't attribute that feeling to the Holy Spirit any more than I would attribute the Holy Spirit to the feelings I get from being in an inspiring hallway adorned by beautiful artwork. It's meant to create that sensory experience, but it may very well be completely hollow.

Feeling wasn't a good way to put it, but was the only one that I could come up with.

You know what I mean right? Sometimes you walk into a place and you know that it is where you belong. Not really a feeling, not really a thought, but you just know that were you are that very moment is where you belong.

It was one of those.

 

[intricatic]

Feeling wasn't a good way to put it, but was the only one that I could come up with.

You know what I mean right? Sometimes you walk into a place and you know that it is where you belong. Not really a feeling, not really a thought, but you just know that were you are that very moment is where you belong.

It was one of those.

That's actually the very definition of an existential experience. The existentialists defined it by not defining it - it just was, and if you didn't understand it, you obviously hadn't experienced it yet.

I have had an experience like that in the past, though it was on mushrooms. :o Aaaaaages ago, when I was young, stupid, and dead.

 

[lionroar0]

That's actually the very definition of an existential experience. The existentialists defined it by not defining it - it just was, and if you didn't understand it, you obviously hadn't experienced it yet.

I have had an experience like that in the past, though it was on mushrooms. :o Aaaaaages ago, when I was young, stupid, and dead.

Why are you here???

Peace

 

[Daughter of His]

Maybe he hates the thread.

 

[NorrinRadd]

...

and it boils down to liturgical service. ...

I think I agree.

All of my Christian life (i.e. the past 28 years) has been spent among non-liturgical believers. My family is mostly Lutheran, but we were entirely non-practicing (didn't even attend on Easter, Christmas, etc.).

I have attended only Evangelical, Charismatic, and Pentecostal churches, usually ones featuring "contemporary" worship.

Most of them emphasized the fact that we are part of a "New" Covenant -- one that is of the Spirit, not the flesh.

So for me, all the traditional trappings of liturgical worship -- the vestments, the "smells and bells" (in the words of my college roommate, now a Lutheran pastor), etc. -- all that smacks of an attempt to return to the Obsolete Covenant.

 

[lionroar0]

So for me, all the traditional trappings of liturgical worship -- the vestments, the "smells and bells" (in the words of my college roommate, now a Lutheran pastor), etc. -- all that smacks of an attempt to return to the Obsolete Covenant.

What does revelations say about smells and bells?

Peace

 

[NorrinRadd]

What does revelations say about smells and bells?

Peace

Several things, actually.

In 5:8, it says the censers of incense "are" the prayers of the saints -- clearly making them symbolic.

In 8:3-4, an angel mixes incense "with" the prayers of the saints -- which again seems to make it non-literal, not to mention oddly inconsistent with 5:8.

And in 18:13, incense is one of the treasured products of the evil Babylon.

So... ?

 

[Uphill Battle]

given the response, I'm REALLY regretting saying anything about this.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Uphill Battle,

My friend, it was/and is "both".

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

given the response, I'm REALLY regretting saying anything about this.

Your OP was nothing new, we knew this about you already. No need to regret having said it.

I think it makes for healthy discussion.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

From another thread:

Do you realize how Liturgical Jewish worship is? They do not speak of these things to outsiders. They don't write about ceremony... they won't even write his name!

You do realize that God came in human flesh and chose to do so as a Jewish Rabi? Who served in the Temple and Synagogues?

Who participated in all the Jewish rituals... "Baptised in the Jordon", "prayers seven times a day", "keeping the ways that are hard", “not” beginning his teachings until he reached the proper age according to Jewish law?

Who said he came to fulfill not to destroy?

The one who added (not removed) an additional commandment: "to love one another"?

Is this my Lord that you say did not use the Chaburoth meal as HIS ceremony at his last supper?

You doubt that Christ instituted The Eucharist and the Liturgy of worship? What to do and when?

Just because something is spiritual does not mean that it does not have a physical manifestation.

Is it your opinion that Christ told his Apostles to throw out all that OT worship? The songs... The incense... The etc etc etc...

Is that why we see heavenly worship revealed in Revelation this way? Because Christ God taught his Apostles to do away with it?

Go read The book of Revelation again, but this time look for ceremony and the communion of Saints at the Altar.

Do you see worship in heaven resembling anything like modern western Christian worship?

Are the Christians Churches in Jerusalem and Antioch still Christians? Do you think that they lie? Would that be Christian? What motivation would they have for misleaing you about Christianity? They dont need money.


Forgive me...

 

[WarriorAngel]

Ok. This will likely come across as offensive to some people, but that is not my intent. I simply need to get something off my chest, and discuss it. I sincerely hope that nobody is offended, and if they are, understand that I am not doing this to condemn or poke, but to express a very legitimate and deep feeling that I feel I have to share.

I have been reading a book called Blue like Jazz, by Donald Miller. I doubt it's circulated among Catholics and EO much. But that aside, it is a brilliant piece of writing.

something in the book struck a cord with me, regarding the religious observances of Christians, and their place in our lives. And the more and more and more I read it, the more I realized one of the primary reasons I simply cannot accept the claims of some of the churches out there, why I could not see myself being what they are, or doing what they do.

and it boils down to liturgical service.

I feel that there is a disconnect between what was, and is. The claim is, hey, this is how Christians always worshipped. They did the divine liturgy, or this mass, or that form. (This is not intended to single out any one church. Each of the liturgical style churches has their own, and belive it to be the right way, and the way it's always been done.)

but looking in the bible, it is a very different picture. We are to imitate Christ, are we not? What do we see there? How they gather? How he taught? It wasn't the same thing, week in, week, out. It wasn't formulaic. It wasn't prescribed. It was esoteric, it was impactful it was INFORMAL. Men and women sitting in the grass while the Master blessed them with heavenly truth. The broken being healed by his hands. Eating together, reclining together, discussing. Inviting sinners to join in on all but the Bread and wine.

IF the claim is true, that the early church worshipped in exactly the same style as they always have, a dramatic, complete, and sudden shift in they way things had been done, must have happened shortly after the ascension. I can't see any other way. To go from footwashings and sharing a meal, or simply praying together in someones home, to candle lighting, censor swinging, Icon carrying methods doesn't happen overnight.

I do not believe that that is how it was done in the early church. I cannot see it. The only think I can conclude is that it developed over time, until a method of religious ritual was settled on, and that it stuck, and that is what continues to this day (with, of course, subtle changes from time to time, but that is a separate issue.)

there, I've unburdened.... now I expect I'll be shouted down for it, but I felt I had to say it.

ciao.

Maybe someone mentioned this, because i didnt read the thread...

BUT the liturgy is older than the Apostles...in fact the liturgy is from the Jewish worshipping.

So it is an ancient...very ancient form of Worship which is proper, to the Lord.

Now, i think perhaps knowing this, you will have a new insight on the Liturgy.

God Bless.

 

[holdon]

and it boils down to liturgical service.

At the heart of this is that people don't understand that the New Testament faith is entirely spiritual. In the Old there were the types and shadows, images of the things to come. Real images: look at the very rich symbolism of the tabernacle, its utensils, its services, etc...

For Christians, these ought to be things (not without instruction) but of a bygone era. We worship NOT in Jerusalem or Samaria (icons of the liturgies then) but now in Spirit and in truth.
To have a religion of the senses, is going a step backwards. It is back to Judaism. Then you get altars, dressed up priests, mediacy instead of the open and new and living acces to the holy of holies (Heb 10), all sorts of rituals and what not. We were warned both in the epistle to the Galatians and the one to the Hebrews NOT to return that order of things.

People will confound "experience" with "spiritual". They will get relief of their conscience through "experience" instead of simply believing Christ.

That "experience" driven religion may be rituals and ostentatious symbols, gold, incense, holy water and what not, beautiful buildings, poems, theater, etc.....
They may give appease the conscience but will never give real peace, otherwise they wouldn't resort to those crutches over and over again.... it's religion, (what man can do) not faith (what God has done).

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Just because worship is spiritual does not leave it without a physical context.

When you pray do you not bow? Is every knee to bend or not?

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

It's not about the gnosis.

It's about the PRAXIS!

DO THIS...

(Liturgica= work of the people IOW~ What we were taught to DO.)

Forgive me...

 

[Asinner]

Ok. This will likely come across as offensive to some people, but that is not my intent. I simply need to get something off my chest, and discuss it. I sincerely hope that nobody is offended, and if they are, understand that I am not doing this to condemn or poke, but to express a very legitimate and deep feeling that I feel I have to share.

I have been reading a book called Blue like Jazz, by Donald Miller. I doubt it's circulated among Catholics and EO much. But that aside, it is a brilliant piece of writing.

something in the book struck a cord with me, regarding the religious observances of Christians, and their place in our lives. And the more and more and more I read it, the more I realized one of the primary reasons I simply cannot accept the claims of some of the churches out there, why I could not see myself being what they are, or doing what they do.

and it boils down to liturgical service.

I feel that there is a disconnect between what was, and is. The claim is, hey, this is how Christians always worshipped. They did the divine liturgy, or this mass, or that form. (This is not intended to single out any one church. Each of the liturgical style churches has their own, and belive it to be the right way, and the way it's always been done.)

but looking in the bible, it is a very different picture. We are to imitate Christ, are we not?

UB, the entire cycle of the calendar year in the Orthodox Church revolves around the Life and Death of Jesus Christ. It is a complete reenactment, including the times of the year (now during Lent) when all the OT Sciptures are read that speak of Christ and His Kingdom (http://www.monachos.net/library/Lenten_Lectionary_for_First_Week).

In the Church we are taught how to imitate Christ, not simply told to imitate Him, but are given the tools to accomplish this. Let me ask you a question . . . How do we imitate Christ?

What do we see there? How they gather? How he taught? It wasn't the same thing, week in, week, out. It wasn't formulaic. It wasn't prescribed. It was esoteric, it was impactful it was INFORMAL. Men and women sitting in the grass while the Master blessed them with heavenly truth. The broken being healed by his hands. Eating together, reclining together, discussing. Inviting sinners to join in on all but the Bread and wine.

It is both formal and informal. The problem I see here at CF is extreme theologies that it is either this way or that way, either formal or informal, symbolic or literal, human or God, physical or spiritual . . . It is both! Liturgical Worship is again, a reenactment of the Life and Death of Christ, done in psalms, hymns, Scripture readings, PRAYERS. It is Heavenly and transcends any earthly experience. . What is "formulaic" is His Life and Death. It is prescribed and happened one way. It takes the Church one full year to cycle through this Life.

IF the claim is true, that the early church worshipped in exactly the same style as they always have, a dramatic, complete, and sudden shift in they way things had been done, must have happened shortly after the ascension. I can't see any other way. To go from footwashings and sharing a meal, or simply praying together in someones home, to candle lighting, censor swinging, Icon carrying methods doesn't happen overnight.

Again, it is not either or, one way or the other. It is BOTH! We reenact the foot washing, share meals, pray together AND worship. The censor swinging, icon carrying methods all have significance in Christ's Life and Death. Our focus is Christ, not man.

I do not believe that that is how it was done in the early church. I cannot see it.

Perhaps for the simple reason that you have yet to experience it. Finding Christ is not only some intellectual journey that we can rationalize. He is incomprehensible and when we limit our understanding of Him to what we can gain through a book, then we will be missing a great deal.

The only think I can conclude is that it developed over time, until a method of religious ritual was settled on, and that it stuck, and that is what continues to this day (with, of course, subtle changes from time to time, but that is a separate issue.)

The Liturgy of St. James, the brother of our Lord. How much time passed after the Ascension when James wrote this? The Eucharist, the central act of Worship, is the same. The Hymns, Prayers . . . they are Ancient. All are expressions of the Holy Trinity, the greatest being the letters we read in the Scriptures.

there, I've unburdened.... now I expect I'll be shouted down for it, but I felt I had to say it.

ciao.

You are welcome to your opinion. It is a biased opinion for the simple fact that you haven't experienced a Divine Liturgy. Don't forget about the question I asked you earlier.

Love,
Christina

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Esentially, you are saying that from the beginning there was not common prayer around a cup of bread and wine (Study the Jewish Chaburoth meal). People praying in Liturgical fashion asking for the Holy Spirit to decend and asking that the wine and bread be changed to his body and blood so that we may partake.

This can be historically proven. It is fact. Even the lists of what was taken away from Christians during raids by the Roman army show what they were doing... we have those back to early first century.

IOW ~ you are denying The Eucharist.

Forgive me...

 

[benedictaoo]

Ok. This will likely come across as offensive to some people, but that is not my intent. I simply need to get something off my chest, and discuss it. I sincerely hope that nobody is offended, and if they are, understand that I am not doing this to condemn or poke, but to express a very legitimate and deep feeling that I feel I have to share.

I have been reading a book called Blue like Jazz, by Donald Miller. I doubt it's circulated among Catholics and EO much. But that aside, it is a brilliant piece of writing.

something in the book struck a cord with me, regarding the religious observances of Christians, and their place in our lives. And the more and more and more I read it, the more I realized one of the primary reasons I simply cannot accept the claims of some of the churches out there, why I could not see myself being what they are, or doing what they do.

and it boils down to liturgical service.

I feel that there is a disconnect between what was, and is. The claim is, hey, this is how Christians always worshipped. They did the divine liturgy, or this mass, or that form. (This is not intended to single out any one church. Each of the liturgical style churches has their own, and belive it to be the right way, and the way it's always been done.)

but looking in the bible, it is a very different picture. We are to imitate Christ, are we not? What do we see there? How they gather? How he taught? It wasn't the same thing, week in, week, out. It wasn't formulaic. It wasn't prescribed. It was esoteric, it was impactful it was INFORMAL. Men and women sitting in the grass while the Master blessed them with heavenly truth. The broken being healed by his hands. Eating together, reclining together, discussing. Inviting sinners to join in on all but the Bread and wine.

IF the claim is true, that the early church worshipped in exactly the same style as they always have, a dramatic, complete, and sudden shift in they way things had been done, must have happened shortly after the ascension. I can't see any other way. To go from footwashings and sharing a meal, or simply praying together in someones home, to candle lighting, censor swinging, Icon carrying methods doesn't happen overnight.

I do not believe that that is how it was done in the early church. I cannot see it. The only think I can conclude is that it developed over time, until a method of religious ritual was settled on, and that it stuck, and that is what continues to this day (with, of course, subtle changes from time to time, but that is a separate issue.)

there, I've unburdened.... now I expect I'll be shouted down for it, but I felt I had to say it.

ciao.

You allow the influence of others to interpret the bible for you. It all indoctrination, very little of it is factual or truth.

No one can interpret the bible and be 'right'. You have to stop searching the world over looking for *the* correct interpretation.

You can see clearly the ECF indeed celebrated the liturgy. In what century do you really thing folks got off track? And it took 15 centuries to get it back on?

Come on, a little commen sense can go a long way. Luther and Henry didn't even diss liturgical worship... it was the radical reformation that did and we have to be honest here... NO priesthood , No liturgy.

I'm a be blunt. You so badly want, I even sense desperation, you want so badly for the Catholic Church to be false.

Why? What are you so afraid of? She don't bite UpHill.

 

[benedictaoo]

IOW ~ you are denying The Eucharist.

Hey USA, When he finally gives in... one can never say he didn't do all he could to deny it.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Well, UHB..
Go to a Jewish Synagogue worship [Saturday], then go to a Liturgy [Sunday]...
You will find them reminscent of one another.