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Is it just me or are the posts getting all scrambled around here? I just posted something that got put back in between some older posts...? What's up?
Montalban,
if you're looking for my replies, one ended up as #66 on page 7, and the other as #76 on page 8.
BTW, my wife is both the T-Bone Steak and the apples in a pie for desert.quote=Uphill Battle; comparing apples and t-bone steaks.
You mean you think she would think your both 'playin' it safe' and takin' the easy, convenient way of dutifully fulfilling your responsibility in the relationship by goin' thru the motions instead of bein' enthused enough to be spontaneously open and able to verbalize the flow of thoughts and emotions as they happen?if I were to say to my wife the same thing every day, I think she'd get the point that I wasn't putting much effort into it. We aren't talking about a simple "I love you." Were talking about a conversation. Actually communicating.
Not yours.
I've made a very clear distinction between singing, and prayer. If I am to pray to my Father in heaven, it will be in my own words, speaking to him without any contrived script, "holy" words to make me sound more spiritual, and formulas to follow.I am not sure your worship tradition, but virtually all use borrowed words during worship. The words of Charles Wesley, Isaac Watts or John Newton are often repeated - prayerfully - in genuine, heartfelt worship, as are the words of Paul in the consecration of the emblems, the words of Mary in reciting magnificat, or the words of Christ when praying "Our Father".
Do you consider singing hymns or spiritual songs "parroting the words of someone else"? Can not genuine worship exist when you are singing such words?
Peace and blessings
no. I'm frustrated because you are lying about what It is that I DO say. You are quickly becoming the most dishonest person in this thread.I know you're frustrated because you don't know which argument you wish to have, but there's no point blaming me. You said yourself that all that mattered was to state a faith in Jesus! That's all!
for me, it would be. squawking like a parrot, saying absolutely nothing.I never said that we're to only pray that; in fact we use other prayers too. Why you believe one is valid, and others mere 'parroting' is only based on you repeating that it is so
no, we've found rare agreement. I've refuted nothing.I agree. You've just refuted yourself then!
I've explained myself before. I'm not repeating it so you can twist it again. I've had enough dishonesty.That's what YOU said. If it's taken out of a context, then give it a context! I'm going by what you said.
I do, and I'm sure a few others know too. Just because you are very talented at missing the point, is not my problem.Who knows then what your point is at any given moment
I DID NOT SAY THIS.Again, because you say so. You're the one who made the grand sweeping statement that all repetition is meaningless.
yes, I actually have dynamic conversation with my wife. I don't have a script book that I open to speak to her, one script this day, another script for another.So do you, or don't keep changing it all the time?
I agree. So I take it any time you come home from work and she asks "How was your day?" she's being insincere
Why's it meaningless if I use one person's prayer one day, and someone else's another day?
I object to rude, lying individuals who twist words to fit their argument to poison the well so that they can feel like their winning something.Well, when you get around to making up your mind what it is you object to, let me know.
Your posts look more like objecting for the sake of objecting.
Try putting your thoughts into some kind of context then
I've done so. You are lying again.Still waiting for Uphill Battle to explain what he relies on to show that he should only rely on Scripture.
who'd have thunk it?BTW, my wife is both the T-Bone Steak and the apples in a pie for desert.
You mean you think she would think your both 'playin' it safe' and takin' the easy, convenient way of dutifully fulfilling your responsibility in the relationship by goin' thru the motions instead of bein' enthused enough to be spontaneously open and able to verbalize the flow of thoughts and emotions as they happen?
Wouldn't that leave you terribly vulnerable and dependant upon His goodness & mercy?
which redundant question did I miss?One thing is for sure UB.... you never present any evidence for your claims... just fat words. Sorry but Montalban is right you never stick with one issue and find problems with what we ask. You never anwered to Benedicta or me...
That distinction doesn't exist in Orthodoxy. Hymnography is just as much prayer as any other act of the Church. We do distinguish between, liturgical, corporate and personal prayer, but all 3 are prayer, and two can't exist without the third.I've made a very clear distinction between singing, and prayer. If I am to pray to my Father in heaven, it will be in my own words, speaking to him without any contrived script, "holy" words to make me sound more spiritual, and formulas to follow.
That distinction doesn't exist in Orthodoxy. Hymnography is just as much prayer as any other act of the Church. We do distinguish between, liturgical, corporate and personal prayer, but all 3 are prayer, and two can't exist without the third.I've made a very clear distinction between singing, and prayer. If I am to pray to my Father in heaven, it will be in my own words, speaking to him without any contrived script, "holy" words to make me sound more spiritual, and formulas to follow.
It would seem as if you are suggesting that this is our intent, to "sound more spiritual."I've made a very clear distinction between singing, and prayer. If I am to pray to my Father in heaven, it will be in my own words, speaking to him without any contrived script, "holy" words to make me sound more spiritual, and formulas to follow.
I don't know about before this post, but it would appear that, in a round about way, you have condmened others for worshipping through the liturgical form.You KNOW that I said it would be meaningless for ME to do so. If YOU can use a script to get close to God, bully for you. You know I did not condemn others for it, so STOP LYING.
And yet I'm betting that you had a script at your wedding, and that you do when you give her a card or poem. Perhaps you have a favorite song, 'your song' that you share together.yes, I actually have dynamic conversation with my wife. I don't have a script book that I open to speak to her, one script this day, another script for another.
How you substantiate "creative" prayer and worship... Christ said "you do this in my name ....in rememberance of me" He did mean you repeat this.. that is the Eucarist that was worship. They practiced it historically proven, which you bypassed it, (as per my post above) just 16 years (it was recorded ) after Christ's death and resurrection... So? Where is your proof for "creative worship and prayer?:"which redundant question did I miss?
and how can I present evidence for what would be meaningless to ME?
that's rather silly.
Us too... when we sing, we prey twice, Augustine said.That distinction doesn't exist in Orthodoxy. Hymnography is just as much prayer as any other act of the Church. We do distinguish between, liturgical, corporate and personal prayer, but all 3 are prayer, and two can't exist without the third.
Our foundation of prayer is the liturgical life of the Church. The services we have where we come together as the whole body (all across the world). This includes litanies (requests, such as "For all those who have gone in this life before us, especially the Priest Miroslav, let us pray to the Lord. Lord Have mercy"), blessings (statements, ie. Blessed is our God, always now and ever, and unto ages), Scriptures (Kathisma's from the Psalms, Epistle and OT readings, as well as the core, the Gospel readings), Hymnography (Troparia and Kontakion for the day, Stichera, for example, Tropar during Pascha is "Christ is Risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life"), and every other part of the service. It is all liturgical prayer, and it is our foundation in our prayer life.
The next form of prayer is corporate. This is praying together outside of Church. Whether it be meal prayers together, doing a Trisagion for a loved one, prayers during a meeting or whatever else comes to mind.
Then, the third form is personal prayer. This includes formed prayers, such as evening prayer, morning prayers, prayers for certain needs, as well as informal prayer, and of most importance but most difficult, the prayer of silence ("Be still and know that I am God"). The prayer of silence is more than just silence of the mouth, but silence of the mind as well. There are many writings on acquiring the prayer of silence, many having to focus on the usage of the "Jesus Prayer" ("Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.") to lead into this prayer of silence, but as Elder Cleopa said, it takes years and years to reach the stage of complete silence in prayer.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.
What does God want from us? Authentic worship. What does he think of ritual without heart in it? Sin.
For me, parroting the words of someone else, would be no authentic prayer. It would be worship devoid of thought and heart, and would be worthless.
unless of course, you think there is some special power in the words as opposed to the praying itself.
Prayer is conversing with God. I see no reason to use someone elses words, in fact, I find it rather rude. Think if you were to speak that way to anyone here. If they wanted to speak with you, have a relationship with you, and you read off what someone else has said, everytime you get together for a converstation.
that is why it would be wrong for me to do. It is no different than the man who eats meat, although firmly convinced it would be sin to do so.
I'm not answering this question again, I've been VERY clear.
It's not that you can't worship with one voice and one heart around one thought -- that's the goal of most every church regardless of affiliation. It's just that rote worship lends itself to being heart-less, mind-less and life-less. Again, every church struggles with some of its members in this regardless of how legalistic or free they claim themselves to be.but where do you get this false notion from?
How are you making this so subjective.
God asks for the Mass UB- that is what he asked for and you disbelieve that- but that's the truth.
That is worshipping in spirit and in truth. It's universal- we can all over the world worship God in the same moment with one voice- it's awesome UB. I wish you would stop denying yourself the fullness.
It not coming from the heart is your decision- why do you choice that?
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