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there are potential 'pitfalls' in any form of worshipIt's not that you can't worship with one voice and one heart around one thought -- that's the goal of most every church regardless of affiliation. It's just that rote worship lends itself to being heart-less, mind-less and life-less. Again, every church struggles with some of its members in this regardless of how legalistic or free they claim themselves to be.
Go Cards!
there are potential 'pitfalls' in any form of worshipIt's not that you can't worship with one voice and one heart around one thought -- that's the goal of most every church regardless of affiliation. It's just that rote worship lends itself to being heart-less, mind-less and life-less. Again, every church struggles with some of its members in this regardless of how legalistic or free they claim themselves to be.
Go Cards!
I see no command for NC christians to follow a litany. I see no command against creative, dynamic worship.How you substantiate "creative" prayer and worship...
and we do. I don't see a command on exactly how we are to do that, beyond sharing the cup and bread. No formal prayers are in the scripture, that must be read. no blessings nor benedictions exist in the passage that must be followed.Christ said "you do this in my name ....in rememberance of me"
if you say so. I don't believe that it's the same, but that is irrelevant.He did mean you repeat this.. that is the Eucarist that was worship.
I guess I missed that particular bit of evidence, with all the problems CF has been having. would you give post number, or repost?They practiced it historically proven, which you bypassed it, (as per my post above) just 16 years (it was recorded ) after Christ's death and resurrection...
I need none.So? Where is your proof for "creative worship and prayer?:"
no doubt. That of course, does not mean that God does not desire real conversation with us.And BTW that example about your wife was so poor... We are not talking about human relatioships here but us and GOD... God is God and deserves respect.
nor did I equate him with a beer buddy, just shooting the bull.Moses was told to remove his shoes before talking to Him.. Wanting it or not you see God antrhopocentrically... He is not your "beer buddy" having Him over to watch the game... He is God and deserves all Honour, and Glory and worship....
that's right..... I'm a bigger heretic than even the average protestant.Us too... when we sing, we prey twice, Augustine said.
But I think this is UpHill theology ad it is not so much the understanding of all protestants.
Signing a song of praise and worship is indeed a prey to God.
I see no instance where he asked for the Mass. You just believe your chosen church's take on it. I do not.but where do you get this false notion from?
How are you making this so subjective.
God asks for the Mass UB- that is what he asked for and you disbelieve that- but that's the truth.
like I said, to me, it would be no more than reading a book out loud, no more than saying the right words at the right time, because it's what is expected. NOT interested.That is worshipping in spirit and in truth. It's universal- we can all over the world worship God in the same moment with one voice- it's awesome UB. I wish you would stop denying yourself the fullness.
because I believe it is worthless for me to do. I do not believe that God wants it.It not coming from the heart is your decision- why do you choice that?
Absolutely! So much of worship today is a 'tastebud' issue that is self-centered. How does it make me feel, do I like the music, the creeds are what resonate within my heart -- whatever the expression, when it's all said and done it's just a vehicle and since God will be looking at the heart I don't think it will matter what vehicle gets you closer to God's heart. (As long as isn't a Chevy or Dodge because Ford is the official vehicle of heaven. BTW all Protestants drive Fords.)there are potential 'pitfalls' in any form of worship
He don't need none???Quote:
So? Where is your proof for "creative worship and prayer?:"
I need none.
What do you mean "I need none" ?
Then your "creative prayer" is baseless thus invalid...
He don't need none???Quote:
So? Where is your proof for "creative worship and prayer?:"
I need none.
What do you mean "I need none" ?
Then your "creative prayer" is baseless thus invalid...
that's right..... I'm a bigger heretic than even the average protestant.
I see no instance where he asked for the Mass. You just believe your chosen church's take on it. I do not.
like I said, to me, it would be no more than reading a book out loud, no more than saying the right words at the right time, because it's what is expected. NOT interested.
because I believe it is worthless for me to do. I do not believe that God wants it.
that's right..... I'm a bigger heretic than even the average protestant.
I see no instance where he asked for the Mass. You just believe your chosen church's take on it. I do not.
like I said, to me, it would be no more than reading a book out loud, no more than saying the right words at the right time, because it's what is expected. NOT interested.
because I believe it is worthless for me to do. I do not believe that God wants it.
That's theirs choice though.. liturgy can not be blamed for what ppl choose to do.It's not that you can't worship with one voice and one heart around one thought -- that's the goal of most every church regardless of affiliation. It's just that rote worship lends itself to being heart-less, mind-less and life-less. Again, every church struggles with some of its members in this regardless of how legalistic or free they claim themselves to be.
Go Cards!
no, it means I need none.Quote:
So? Where is your proof for "creative worship and prayer?:"
I need none.
What do you mean "I need none" ?
Then your "creative prayer" is baseless thus invalid...
Best not to speak for other people. It's rather presumptious, and rude.He don't need none???
He makes up stuff as he goes along? Oh yeah, I forgot everything is permitted and what he personally don't like is not beneficial.
no, I dislike religious arrogance.what's up with the attitude, you really dislike not being confirmed in your beliefs huh?
nope. I'm no lone ranger. I have many friends who feel the same way I do. But that isn't the point. Even if nobody agreed, I'd feel the same. I'm not a sycophant.Are you feeling lone ranger-ish and is that why you are being smart alec? Because no one has open arms embracing your own beliefs that you have "discovered"?
yeah, I know what your church uses those passages for.OT and Revelation and NT and Last Supper and John 6... and etc and so on.
no, it IS stagnant and empty to me.because that is your choice , you choose it to be stagnant and empty. WHY??? I'm asking, why?
you don't listen. I said I don't think he wants inauthentic worship. For me, that would be following a script. God does not want holy words, with no heart.Based on what do you think God does not want this? He rebukes hearts that love Him and come to Him in worship??? He only wants hearts to come to him in worship in some free forming way?
where do you get that notion from?
it's nothing really. They are trying to make it seem like I mean "anything goes." What I DO mean, is praying to God using my own words, instead of reading off someone elses prayer.I've never heard of a "creative" prayer before, care to elaborate?
firstly, it would be beneficial to use the quote function."I see no command for NC christians to follow a litany. I see no command against creative, dynamic worship." UB said
I see command to do in rememberance and I see the liturgical ethos of the Jewish temple to be the way the first Christians worshiped..
I see nowhere "dynamic" or "creative" worship mentioned... though.....
yes. Do this. Take bread, take wine, in communion in rememberance. Not "say these exact words, in this exact order, every time, all the time, to the exclusion of all else. It isn't there."and we do. I don't see a command on exactly how we are to do that, beyond sharing the cup and bread. No formal prayers are in the scripture, that must be read. no blessings nor benedictions exist in the passage that must be followed." UB said
wrong again... it is in the ACTS... and there is historical evidence that there was a standard.
He did mean you repeat this.. that is the Eucarist that was worship. if you say so. I don't believe that it's the same, but that is irrelevant.
What do you mean it is ireelevant... In the Greek he says "do this " in continious tense... Do this always in my name.. And it is very relevant... You cannot dismiss this one as irrelevant ...But that is typical of what you do ..isn't it to win an argument you dismiss the evidence..
cornered? hardly. You've said nothing to convince me that my opinion of how I am to pray and worship is wrong. You just don't like anyone who doesn't do things as you do. It's religious snobbery."nor did I equate him with a beer buddy, just shooting the bull." UB said.
Cut to the chase will ya? and give me a break ... so typical of you when you are cornered...
sorry. I can't do anything but talk. I don't have everything scripted for me."your using a kneejerk reaction to someone who doesn't agree with you. : UB said
save me the characterizations...of what I do and what I do not ... You have presented nothing but talk up to know...
it is a cup and bread. How is that irreverant? just because you worship the cup and bread, doesn't mean I have to."I know that God is worthy of all honour, Glory and worship. He also wants us to speak to him. He says as much. And he gives no command for us to follow scripts to do so." UB said
He did tell Moses to remove his shoes that is we have to show respect and he did tell us to do the eucarist (that you irrevently called it "cup and bread" while it is the blood and body of Christ..
sure it does. "Pray like this." not "pray these words exactly.""the "our father" that so many use as a prayer template, is demonstrative of that fact. Real, heartfelt talking to God."UB said
The text in the NT about the prayer of our Fahter does not testify to that sorry...
right. and if you had been reading what I've said repeatedly, I didn't condemn anyone for using liturgy. I state why I have a problem with it, and why I reject it. What YOU do is no skin off my nose.You have been told before it is in the disposition of the one who prays not the content... of the prayer...neither the context... You can pray "creatively" for hours and still not praying because you utter words just the same. It is in the intent that we mess up praying to God not the way we deliver... So even if you call him "buddy" or "All mighty God" (like many of us prefer to do... ) it all depends of how in tune we are with Him.
yes, he did. He prayed the same thing at the same time. Over the course of the time he was under that great duress, he prayed three times for God to take the cup from him.Also, to reinforce that Christ did encourage prayer continuisly and repetitive... we could look into the Gesthemane prayer (Garden of the Olive trees)
Christ prayed the same thing...
no. And that isn't the point.if you are praying for someone who is sick ... you mean God will get "bored" with the same request? how absurd that would be....
lol... for your last comment... You are defenately too obstinate to admit that you have no more comments to offer here ....no, it means I need none.
God created us as dynamic, creative individuals.
Best not to speak for other people. It's rather presumptious, and rude.
no, I dislike religious arrogance.
nope. I'm no lone ranger. I have many friends who feel the same way I do. But that isn't the point. Even if nobody agreed, I'd feel the same. I'm not a sycophant.
yeah, I know what your church uses those passages for.
no, it IS stagnant and empty to me.
you don't listen. I said I don't think he wants inauthentic worship. For me, that would be following a script. God does not want holy words, with no heart.
it's nothing really. They are trying to make it seem like I mean "anything goes." What I DO mean, is praying to God using my own words, instead of reading off someone elses prayer.
firstly, it would be beneficial to use the quote function.
THAT out of the way, I see a command to take bread and wine together. If we WERE to do it like in the passage, you'd be doing the entire passover meal. You do not however. So, the whole "this is how it's done, this is how we do it" is invalid. I'm quite familiar with the fact that the first Jewish converts to Christianity continued liturgical worship. That is no suprise. They were Jews, and that is what they were used to. I am not a Jew. Neither were a great many people whom converted after the first "batch" of Jews. (look in to it. You'll find that it wasn't too long until almost ALL the converts were gentiles, as opposed to Jews.)
yes. Do this. Take bread, take wine, in communion in rememberance. Not "say these exact words, in this exact order, every time, all the time, to the exclusion of all else. It isn't there.
cornered? hardly. You've said nothing to convince me that my opinion of how I am to pray and worship is wrong. You just don't like anyone who doesn't do things as you do. It's religious snobbery.
sorry. I can't do anything but talk. I don't have everything scripted for me.
it is a cup and bread. How is that irreverant? just because you worship the cup and bread, doesn't mean I have to.
sure it does. "Pray like this." not "pray these words exactly."
right. and if you had been reading what I've said repeatedly, I didn't condemn anyone for using liturgy. I state why I have a problem with it, and why I reject it. What YOU do is no skin off my nose.
yes, he did. He prayed the same thing at the same time. Over the course of the time he was under that great duress, he prayed three times for God to take the cup from him.
that is NOT indicitive of Jesus praying the same thing week in and week out. Nor, is it indicitive of Jesus taking a script, and reading it. ( I snipped the scripture for post brevity. I think we both know what it says. We just disagree on what it entails.)
no. And that isn't the point.
you are either not getting it, or deliberatly overlooking it.
lol... for your last comment... You are defenately too obstinate to admit that you have no more comments to offer here ....no, it means I need none.
God created us as dynamic, creative individuals.
Best not to speak for other people. It's rather presumptious, and rude.
no, I dislike religious arrogance.
nope. I'm no lone ranger. I have many friends who feel the same way I do. But that isn't the point. Even if nobody agreed, I'd feel the same. I'm not a sycophant.
yeah, I know what your church uses those passages for.
no, it IS stagnant and empty to me.
you don't listen. I said I don't think he wants inauthentic worship. For me, that would be following a script. God does not want holy words, with no heart.
it's nothing really. They are trying to make it seem like I mean "anything goes." What I DO mean, is praying to God using my own words, instead of reading off someone elses prayer.
firstly, it would be beneficial to use the quote function.
THAT out of the way, I see a command to take bread and wine together. If we WERE to do it like in the passage, you'd be doing the entire passover meal. You do not however. So, the whole "this is how it's done, this is how we do it" is invalid. I'm quite familiar with the fact that the first Jewish converts to Christianity continued liturgical worship. That is no suprise. They were Jews, and that is what they were used to. I am not a Jew. Neither were a great many people whom converted after the first "batch" of Jews. (look in to it. You'll find that it wasn't too long until almost ALL the converts were gentiles, as opposed to Jews.)
yes. Do this. Take bread, take wine, in communion in rememberance. Not "say these exact words, in this exact order, every time, all the time, to the exclusion of all else. It isn't there.
cornered? hardly. You've said nothing to convince me that my opinion of how I am to pray and worship is wrong. You just don't like anyone who doesn't do things as you do. It's religious snobbery.
sorry. I can't do anything but talk. I don't have everything scripted for me.
it is a cup and bread. How is that irreverant? just because you worship the cup and bread, doesn't mean I have to.
sure it does. "Pray like this." not "pray these words exactly."
right. and if you had been reading what I've said repeatedly, I didn't condemn anyone for using liturgy. I state why I have a problem with it, and why I reject it. What YOU do is no skin off my nose.
yes, he did. He prayed the same thing at the same time. Over the course of the time he was under that great duress, he prayed three times for God to take the cup from him.
that is NOT indicitive of Jesus praying the same thing week in and week out. Nor, is it indicitive of Jesus taking a script, and reading it. ( I snipped the scripture for post brevity. I think we both know what it says. We just disagree on what it entails.)
no. And that isn't the point.
you are either not getting it, or deliberatly overlooking it.
you have demonstrated that you don't get my point.lol... for your last comment... You are defenately too obstinate to admit that you have no more comments to offer here ....
I brought about the Gesthemane example and the Eucarist and both you tried unsuccesfully to dispute them...
You twisted even the Eucaristic celebration and command by saying he did not mean "repeat it" when it does say that... using continius present.. ha ... no knoweldge of Greek.....too bad...
The Eucarist is to be celebrated weekly it is recorded they did celebrated "repeadidly" even every day... dah... I wonder if they repeated the same prayers? They recited the Lord's prayer and you are saying he did not say that is is HOW you shall pray but... He said.. pray AS this ....
ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 6:9-13
9ουτως ουν προσευχεσθε υμεις πατερ ημων ο εν τοις ουρανοις αγιασθητω το ονομα σου
10ελθετω η βασιλεια σου γενηθητω το θελημα σου ως εν ουρανω και επι γης
11τον αρτον ημων τον επιουσιον δος ημιν σημερον
12και αφες ημιν τα οφειληματα ημων ως και ημεις αφηκαμεν τοις οφειλεταις ημων
13και μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον αλλα ρυσαι ημας απο του πονηρου
1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU) Public Domain
ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 11:2-4
2ειπεν δε αυτοις οταν προσευχησθε λεγετε πατερ αγιασθητω το ονομα σου ελθετω η βασιλεια σου 3τον αρτον ημων τον επιουσιον διδου ημιν το καθ ημεραν 4και αφες ημιν τας αμαρτιας ημων και γαρ αυτοι αφιομεν παντι οφειλοντι ημιν και μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον
so that you might have an objection in the Gospel in Mark... He is more "direct" he does not say "pray as" but .... ONLY "Pray by saying" so there... It is not a model but an acual prayer given to us to pray it... I do not think that the historians who have also recorded that first Christians used that prayer... they were sinning or they had a "
choice" to not use this prayer as it was a commandment of Christ to pray it and they did... now if you want to insist more into your relavistic notions of worship be my guest.....
Both historically and scripturally your thesis is debunked...
you have demonstrated that you don't get my point.lol... for your last comment... You are defenately too obstinate to admit that you have no more comments to offer here ....
I brought about the Gesthemane example and the Eucarist and both you tried unsuccesfully to dispute them...
You twisted even the Eucaristic celebration and command by saying he did not mean "repeat it" when it does say that... using continius present.. ha ... no knoweldge of Greek.....too bad...
The Eucarist is to be celebrated weekly it is recorded they did celebrated "repeadidly" even every day... dah... I wonder if they repeated the same prayers? They recited the Lord's prayer and you are saying he did not say that is is HOW you shall pray but... He said.. pray AS this ....
ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 6:9-13
9ουτως ουν προσευχεσθε υμεις πατερ ημων ο εν τοις ουρανοις αγιασθητω το ονομα σου
10ελθετω η βασιλεια σου γενηθητω το θελημα σου ως εν ουρανω και επι γης
11τον αρτον ημων τον επιουσιον δος ημιν σημερον
12και αφες ημιν τα οφειληματα ημων ως και ημεις αφηκαμεν τοις οφειλεταις ημων
13και μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον αλλα ρυσαι ημας απο του πονηρου
1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU) Public Domain
ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 11:2-4
2ειπεν δε αυτοις οταν προσευχησθε λεγετε πατερ αγιασθητω το ονομα σου ελθετω η βασιλεια σου 3τον αρτον ημων τον επιουσιον διδου ημιν το καθ ημεραν 4και αφες ημιν τας αμαρτιας ημων και γαρ αυτοι αφιομεν παντι οφειλοντι ημιν και μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον
so that you might have an objection in the Gospel in Mark... He is more "direct" he does not say "pray as" but .... ONLY "Pray by saying" so there... It is not a model but an acual prayer given to us to pray it... I do not think that the historians who have also recorded that first Christians used that prayer... they were sinning or they had a "
choice" to not use this prayer as it was a commandment of Christ to pray it and they did... now if you want to insist more into your relavistic notions of worship be my guest.....
Both historically and scripturally your thesis is debunked...
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