You know Pompeii?

[Silent Ocean]

A Second Letter From Pliny About the Eruption of Mt. Vesuvius

Look a letter describing people escaping the ash and such from the town that he was in.

I'm sure I read both letters, he says they were leaving and panicking.The one who managed to escape are himself and his mother; he uses 'us' to refer to them both,then shift to describe the people's situation (the people whom he saw or hear, he can't have eyes everywhere).

In a second letter to Tacitus, Pliny describes what happened to him and to his mother during the second day of the disaster:

" Ashes were already falling, not as yet very thickly. I looked round: a dense black cloud was coming up behind us, spreading over the earth like a flood.'Let us leave the road while we can still see,'I said,'or we shall be knocked down and trampled underfoot in the dark by the crowd behind.'We had scarcely sat down to rest when darkness fell, not the dark of a moonless or cloudy night, but as if the lamp had been put out in a closed room.

You could hear the shrieks of women, the wailing of infants, and the shouting of men; some were calling their parents, others their children or their wives, trying to recognize them by their voices. People bewailed their own fate or that of their relatives, and there were some who prayed for death in their terror of dying. Many besought the aid of the gods, but still more imagined there were no gods left, and that the universe was plunged into eternal darkness for evermore.

"There were people, too, who added to the real perils by inventing fictitious dangers: some reported that part of Misenum had collapsed or another part was on fire, and though their tales were false they found others to believe them. A gleam of light returned, but we took this to be a warning of the approaching flames rather than daylight. However, the flames remained some distance off; then darkness came on once more and ashes began to fall again, this time in heavy showers. We rose from time to time and shook them off, otherwise we should have been buried and crushed beneath their weight. I could boast that not a groan or cry of fear escaped me in these perils, but I admit that I derived some poor consolation in my mortal lot from the belief that the whole world was dying with me and I with it."

source:
The Destruction of Pompeii, 79 AD

 

[gord44]

I think Jon Snow saved a bunch of people from the volcano. That's what a recent documentary made about the film said anyways.

 

[LoAmmi]

We returned to Misenum, where we refreshed ourselves as well as we could, and passed an anxious night between hope and fear; though, indeed, with a much larger share of the latter: for the earthquake still continued, while many frenzied persons ran up and down heightening their own and their friends' calamities by terrible predictions.

MANY FRENZIED PERSONS.

MANY.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

Oh this is just too good!

But what about those moments where god punishes the faithful? Is not but a test from Allah?

 

[ElShae]

@LoAmmi, as far as I understood from the link you posted, there were no people who escaped... Pliny the younger lived in a different city not in Pompeii, it's Misenum. Pliny was talking about the people of his city Misenum. Pliny the elder sent ships to rescue people but that resulted in his death. He died cause of the heat and inhaling toxic gases coming out of the volcano, as what I've read, he had asthma already.

 

[LoAmmi]

Ok. Yes, everybody died and most of their bodies evaporated into pixie dust while others didn't so that while we can only find 2000 bodies, 20,000 really died. Due to pixie dust and star wishes.

I'm done here.

 

[ElShae]

Lol, I wouldn't say pixie dust and star wishes... What's the source you got that info from?

 

[Silent Ocean]

MANY FRENZIED PERSONS.

MANY.

Ugh with these caps, I real feel like using a kuwaiti/arabic expression here, but I will suppress it since only alshae will understand it. Alright I fix ur quote and put the link of it

We returned to Misenum, where we refreshed ourselves as well as we could, and passed an anxious night between hope and fear; though, indeed, with a much larger share of the latter: for the earthquake still continued, while many frenzied persons ran up and down heightening their own and their friends' calamities by terrible predictions. However, my mother and I, notwithstanding the danger we had passed, and that which still threatened us, had no thoughts of leaving the place, till we could receive some news of my uncle."

Alright let's start,

He uses many in the context of spreading bad predications at that time, not in who survived in the end from Pompeii's population.Not to mentioned that he is pointing out a change in location by using 'returned.' Anyhow, as far as I know many and most are two different things, just like how 2000 and 20,000 have two different values, if the slaves are 2,000, the survivors are most of Pompeii population, if it consisted of 20,000.

He also says that:

I remember some who declared that one part of Misenum had fallen, that another was on fire; it was false, but they found people to believe them.

Misenum seems too fine to me to call its people survivors or not, or to relate the destiny of those in it to the whole population in Pompeii.

This is how he describes the situation before returning:

it now grew rather lighter, which we imagined to be rather the forerunner of an approaching burst of flames (as in truth it was) than the return of day: however, the fire fell at a distance from us: then again we were immersed in thick darkness, and a heavy shower of ashes rained upon us, which we were obliged every now and then to stand up to shake off, otherwise we should have been crushed and buried in the heap. I might boast that, during all this scene of horror, not a sigh, or expression of fear, escaped me, had not my support been grounded in that miserable, though mighty, consolation, that all mankind were involved in the same calamity, and that I was perishing with the world itself.

At last this dreadful darkness was dissipated by degrees, like a cloud or smoke; the real day returned, and even the sun shone out, though with a lurid light, like when an eclipse is coming on. Every object that presented itself to our eyes (which were extremely weakened) seemed changed, being covered deep with ashes as if with snow.

 

[ElShae]

Oh this is just too good!

But what about those moments where god punishes the faithful? Is not but a test from Allah?

I believe this Sheikh answered your question very well: islamqa.info/en/324

 

[Silent Ocean]

Anyhow, just to be fair, I have been reading many articles for hours now and all seem to believe same as aloami that 90% of people escaped, I failed to find any proof of what they claim. Some say that Pliny interviewed the survivors, didn't find any of them online and I managed to know that he has a book. So in case that it is a fact that 90% escaped while the rest didn't, I still won't change my perspective of Allah/God. First the 10% found can't be all slaves. Second, just because they (90%) didn't die then and there, doesn't mean they weren't punished. What happened to their city and the horror that had befallen their hearts at that time is a punishment itself, while as for the rest founded frozen in ashs, Allah (God) willed them to be an example for us, an example of his power that wasn't erased by time. If Allah willed all the people to die at that time, they would have, and if Allah willed all the people to survive, they would have, but Allah willed to have them die in different places, forms, and time. So yeah, once again I read this incident as something to learn from as believer and as a reminder of Allah (God)'s power.How many people died or survived doesn't change my perspective of this event. I still see what happened there as something happened due to God's Will, and the ones that remained frozen as a very effective example of his Might, and a reminder of how we are as a human, and how if death came, there is no escape. Also, the fact that the buildings that contain what religion view as sin still exist, and the paintings on it still there with its color, this also I take it as some thing Allah (God) willed to remain, and willed us to know after all these years. To think in the end, and remember his warnings as much as we enjoy his blessings.

 

[elephunky]

lol yes 'you', as for me* in my faith we believe that nature receive orders. Allah says:

﴿إنَّما أمرُهُ إذا أرادَ شيئًا أن يقولَ لَهُ كُنْ فَيَكون﴾

Yas:82

Point: If Allah wants to will something to happen, he only says 'be' and it shall be.

Anyhow~

I'm aware that since you are a Humanist, there is a huge gap in difference between us (-: I'm replying now to things I believe might be repeated by other readers (saving their time in other words). So Oh-well that is about Islam for now! Our concept of nature is different, so I won't think it just happened and that was a coincidence {-:


If i'm ever going to change my mind about that it will be because Allah willed it; willed to change my mind, willed to change my heart.


The End! ~ ~ ~

Nature does not need to be controlled. Nor do I buy into the concept of deity or holy texts.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

I believe this Sheikh answered your question very well: islamqa.info/en/324

Circular reasoning followed by presuppositionalist arguments. I am not impressed.

Did you know that every time a Muslim's prayers are answered it is because of the Flying Teapot being closer to earth and every time is is further the kuffar have their prayers answered. Assuredly Kettlism is the true religion

 

[Zoness]

Why would you presume that? Don't hate just because we are Muslims. Some people seems to be very allergic to opinions when it contains the word muslim or islam..

No, that's not what I meant actually... I was saying that we've explained the Islamic point of view and now we want you to explain your religion's point of view not YOUR personal one.

I'm only allergic to opinions when they supersede observable fact. I do not identify with a specific religion. When I did identify with paganism and Christianity, neither religion would claim that God seeks to punish these people because of their behavior.

 

[elephunky]

I'm only allergic to opinions when they supersede observable fact. I do not identify with a specific religion. When I did identify with paganism and Christianity, neither religion would claim that God seeks to punish these people because of their behavior.

I think in the bible it was said that god had already punished his people with the flood and would not do so again.

 

[ElShae]

@EnemyOfReason, now I know you didn't choose your username just cause it sounded cool. I presume there must be a reason why you're an enemy of reason?

 

[ElShae]

I'm only allergic to opinions when they supersede observable fact. I do not identify with a specific religion. When I did identify with paganism and Christianity, neither religion would claim that God seeks to punish these people because of their behavior.

It's actually mentioned in the Bible that god punished people and nations: christiananswers.net/dictionary/punishment.html
I'm not sure about paganism though.

 

[Zoness]

It's actually mentioned in the Bible that god punished people and nations: christiananswers.net/dictionary/punishment.html
I'm not sure about paganism though.

Well, I'm not a Christian anymore for a variety of reasons.

It seems so pedestrian that a God who is truly transcendent would be so infuriated by his creation that he needs to destroy it to teach them a lesson. An unclear one, at that. That's how I see it.

 

[theophilus777]

I think in the bible it was said that god had already punished his people with the flood and would not do so again.

That only pertains specifically to destroying the earth by flood. Fire is still ok. A volcano kinda counts. Hurricanes too, since its not at all the same type of flood.

Any concept of "it was natural phenomenon, not Divine Judgment" is logically flawed as there is no such dilemma.

 

[elephunky]

Well, I'm not a Christian anymore for a variety of reasons.

It seems so pedestrian that a God who is truly transcendent would be so infuriated by his creation that he needs to destroy it to teach them a lesson. An unclear one, at that. That's how I see it.

I always wondered why a deity wouldnt just punish the responsible parties directly rather than just killing a whole bunch of randoms.

 

[elephunky]

That only pertains specifically to destroying the earth by flood. Fire is still ok. A volcano kinda counts. Hurricanes too, since its not at all the same type of flood.

Any concept of "it was natural phenomenon, not Divine Judgment" is logically flawed as there is no such dilemma.

How is it logically flawed exactly? I find it logically flawed to think that it is controlled by divinity. Also - not a phenomenon. These things happen in nature and it has been explained how volcanoe eruptions happen.