You did not chose Me, I chose you.

[BNR32FAN]

not sure what point you are making. There is a near-infinite number of things the Bible says we are saved WITHOUT.

I have eschewed cherry-picking verses and suggested that we go through a systematic process of gathering all the biblical data and then examine the various explanations of those data carefully.

Is your comment that we should add the data of 1 Cor 13 to the data of how God justifies? If so what passage?

I think John 3:16 is a great piece of data that ties God's love with man's choice resulting in justification.

I imagine the list will be in the 50+ range.

Justification means that we have been made right with God. This doesn’t mean that we can’t be made wrong with Him afterwards. Yes we are justified by faith but we must also abide in Christ in order to receive salvation.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You never sin? Only one person never sinned and he was fully God.

There are two types of sin according to 1 John 5:16-17 John is talking about a 'brother' Christian. Some believe those that never accept Jesus commit the sin unto death. And as much as unbelief will cause death, John is talking about the two types of sin we learn of in the Old Testament, our schoolmaster. Willful sins and unintentional sins. Unintentional sins committed unwittingly are called trespasses Leviticus 5:15. Those are sins not unto death. And seeing as a true Christian cannot commit sins unto death, but can commit trespasses, trespasses are the only type of sin in the Lord's Prayer.

1 John 3 is talking about willful sin against God's laws, which are 'unto death.' That is what 1 John 3:9 is referring to. But we can still hurt people's feelings, or be hurt ourselves and hold grudges. Those are sins not unto death, and as long as we forgive others their trespasses against us, our own trespasses we don't even know about are forgiven.

Sins unto death are easy not to commit, because of the new nature we have been given when we were born again of the Spirit. 1 John 3:9. Only Christians that have never truly repented do not have the Spirit and do not belong to Christ. Romans 8:9. That is why there is still so much sin in the Church, like adultery and fallen pastors. Or pedophiles among priests. And Jesus will say to them "I never knew you."

We must mature in the Spirit and recognize the danger of our holding unforgiveness towards one another. We cannot let roots of bitterness take hold. Only those who can be free to constantly forgive are sinless. Immediate forgiveness before the sun goes down is the maturity we need to be at. Paul says, "Be angry and sin not." So having emotions is not sin. But holding on to that anger or hurt can be.

 

[Halbhh]

We, as believers, will abide in Him. The Vinedresser is responsible for that.

If we abided in Him automatically, or in spite of ourselves, or were...picked up off of the ground and reattached in spite of ourselves....

In spite of whatever we choose on our own -- as if we are not able to stray -- if that were so, then (if that were so) much of the New Testament would be misworded.

Commands that aren't actually commands in that case, but more like options.

But all that isn't so. Of course, we are able to stray. Commands are given to us by Christ because we are to do as He says to do.

But yes, it's wonderful to see in the first 2 parables in Luke chapter 15 that He rescues us. And in the 3rd parable we learn more.

We are to listen to Him.

 

[Hammster]

Paul was making a point. It was a set up in the middle of a teaching, but not the conclusion. The whole teaching on the law was from chapter 1 through chapter 8, and you stop at 4.

His point was that justification is by faith alone, in the OT and NT periods, and a man is blessed whose sins are not held against him.

 

[Hammster]

It's Paul.

Your pastor, then, must disagree with Paul.

 

[Hammster]

I check all translations, but prefer my own Bible to have all the words.

Me too. Just not extra ones.

 

[Hammster]

Justification means that we have been made right with God. This doesn’t mean that we can’t be made wrong with Him afterwards. Yes we are justified by faith but we must also abide in Christ in order to receive salvation.

Not really. Our righteousness comes from being in Christ. And that itself is a work of Christ.

 

[Hammster]

If we abided in Him automatically, or in spite of ourselves, or were...picked up off of the ground and reattached in spite of ourselves....

In spite of whatever we choose on our own -- as if we are not able to stray -- if that were so, then (if that were so) much of the New Testament would be misworded.

Commands that aren't actually commands in that case, but more like options.

But all that isn't so. Of course, we are able to stray. Commands are given to us by Christ because we are to do as He says to do.

But yes, it's wonderful to see in the first 2 parables in Luke chapter 15 that He rescues us. And in the 3rd parable we learn more.

We are to listen to Him.

I’ve not argued that we cannot stray. But the Vinedresser prunes. And the Shepherd goes after the sheep. And the Father disciplines. These are pictures of love from One greater to one lesser. Do you really think that a shepherd who lets a sheep get away is a Good Shepherd? Or that a Vinedresser that lets a fruit-producing branch fall off is a good Vinedresser? Or that a Father who cannot correct a child is a Good Father? I certainly do not.

 

[renniks]

trespasses are the only type of sin in the Lord's Prayer.

1 John 3 is talking about willful sin against God's laws, which are 'unto death.' That is what 1 John 3:9 is referring to. But we can still hurt people's feelings, or be hurt ourselves and hold grudges. Those are sins not unto death, and as long as we forgive others their trespasses against us, our own trespasses we don't even know about are forgiven.

I'm not seeing this in the verses you quote. If you know what to do and don't do it, that is willful sin. James is talking to Christians and listing thier willful sins. He calls them brothers and sisters.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not really. Our righteousness comes from being in Christ. And that itself is a work of Christ.

Are your saying that a person who is in Christ is incapable of failing to abide in Him?

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Hammster]

Are your saying that a person who is in Christ is incapable of failing to abide in Him?

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Yes, that’s what I am saying.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, that’s what I am saying.

But I just showed you that Jesus said it is possible for someone who is in Christ to fail to abide in Him.

 

[Hammster]

But I just showed you that Jesus said it is possible for someone who is in Christ to fail to abide in Him.

No, you didn’t. You quoted a few verses and made an assumption.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, you didn’t. You quoted a few verses and made an assumption.

Were the men He was speaking to abiding in Him?

 

[Hammster]

Were the men He was speaking to abiding in Him?

Yes, His 11 were abiding. The one missing is the key to understanding.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, His 11 were abiding. The one missing is the key to understanding.

But Jesus wasn’t talking to Judas when He said

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can YOU unless YOU abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me YOU can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. IF YOU abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Who is the “YOU” Jesus is referring to? Is it Judas?

 

[Hammster]

But Jesus wasn’t talking to Judas when He said

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can YOU unless YOU abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me YOU can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. IF YOU abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Who is the “YOU” Jesus is referring to? Is it Judas?

That would depend. Some of the yous are obviously those who are saved. We know that because they bear fruit, and the Vinedresser prunes them. The others are those who looked like they belonged (think Judas), and they are cast away.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe that according to 1 Peter 1:1-2 without the Molinism name or label.

Yes it is data for both Molinism and Arminianism.
"That none should perish," is incoherent with all forms of Calvinism!

I quoted 1 Peter 1:1-2 and not 2 Peter 3:9. 1 Peter 1:1-2 is saying that God elects according to His foreknowledge. 2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But yes. I agree with you that 2 Peter 3:9 is not compatible with Calvinism.

I know this goes outside the realm of your personal experience, but Wikipedia states,

"Molinists have internal disagreements about the extent to which they agree with Calvinism, some holding to unconditional election, others holding to conditional election and others still holding to an election that is partly both."​

Source:
Molinism - Wikipedia

This is why I prefer not to carry the Molinist label because one can be either a Calvinist type Molinist, or a Conditional type Molinist. It is the same reason why I prefer to not identify with being a Protestant. For Martin Luther is the founder of the Protestant reformation and I do not agree with his many statements that suggest that we can sin and still be saved. For he said we can sin a thousand times a day and still be saved. While Jacob Arminius is associated with Protestantism, he did not appear to justify sin like Luther did. So I prefer to say that I am an Independent Free Will Libertarian.

Not quite sure how God's moral character has anything to do with God's sovereignty or man's freedom or molinism's possible worlds. Help me understand further.

In Calvinistic Molinism, they most likely believe GOD elects or chooses a world where some will be saved for all eternity in another alternative world or possibility, but would not be saved for all eternity in this world. This is a violation of basic morality because this means God does not care to save all people, and He lets them to be the unlucky ones. It would be like a coast guard saving everyone within a group you were with that was lost at sea, but the coast randomly chose to not save you and your family for no good reason. In such a scenario, you would think the coast guard was not being fair (Especially if he has the ability to easily save you).

 

[BNR32FAN]

That would depend. Some of the yous are obviously those who are saved. We know that because they bear fruit, and the Vinedresser prunes them. The others are those who looked like they belonged (think Judas), and they are cast away.

Which “YOU” in these verses are not referring to Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles?

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Every single time He says the word “YOU” He is referring to His 11 faithful apostles. Not once does He say the word “YOU” in reference to someone else who has s not currently present with Him. I’m sure you can see that but are reluctant to admit it. Why is that?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I quoted 1 Peter 1:1-2 and not 2 Peter 3:9. 1 Peter 1:1-2 is saying that God elects according to His foreknowledge. 2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But yes. I agree with you that 2 Peter 3:9 is not compatible with Calvinism.

I know this goes outside the realm of your personal experience, but Wikipedia states,

"Molinists have internal disagreements about the extent to which they agree with Calvinism, some holding to unconditional election, others holding to conditional election and others still holding to an election that is partly both."​

Source:
Molinism - Wikipedia

This is why I prefer not to carry the Molinist label because one can be either a Calvinist type Molinist, or a Conditional type Molinist. It is the same reason why I prefer to not identify with being a Protestant. For Martin Luther is the founder of the Protestant reformation and I do not agree with his many statements that suggest that we can sin and still be saved. For he said we can sin a thousand times a day and still be saved. While Jacob Arminius is associated with Protestantism, he did not appear to justify sin like Luther did. So I prefer to say that I am an Independent Free Will Libertarian.



In Calvinistic Molinism, they most likely believe GOD elects or chooses a world where some will not be saved in another alternative world. This is a violation of basic morality because this means God does not care to save all people, and He lets them to be the unlucky ones. It would be like a coast guard saving everyone within a group you were with that was lost at sea, but the coast randomly chose to not save you and your family for no good reason. In such a scenario, you would think the coast guard was not being fair (Especially if he has the ability to easily save you).

Lol I’m curious how some hold to both conditional and unconditional election. They’re completely opposing doctrines.