You can't make this stuff up

[DeaconDean]

one is kinda' like calling God a liar.....

but that's nothing new.....from the very beginning there was one (the adversary) that, in essence called God a liar

Your right.

(BTW: you should go read the thread "Giant Skeletons Found?)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[brinny]

Your right.

(BTW: you should go read the thread "Giant Skeletons Found?)

God Bless

Till all are one.

Ok, i promise i won't drink coffee while reading it for fear of spewing it on my computer screen and keyboard from LOL'ing

In the meantime, this is most interesting re: Noah:

“his form and appearance are not like the form of human beings…and his eyes are like the rays of the sun…which made the whole house bright. And he stood up from the hands of the midwife and he opened his mouth and praised the Lord of eternity” (from the book of enoch)

 

[DeaconDean]

Another thing I was told:

Geology trumps scripture.

No rain prior to the flood. (Gen. 2:6)

It did rain accord to (That book) 3:3

Geology of molten rock cooling, provided steam, which formed clouds, which formed rain.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[lismore]

What else do we learn?

Hum...

Lucifer/Satan/Devil whatever term you decide, did not cause man to fall. (Yea, I know its was Adam's decision)

An angel named "Azazyel" is to blame.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Sounds like the Apocrypha Dean.

 

[98cwitr]

Psalm 58:3
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.

 

[DeaconDean]

Sounds like the Apocrypha Dean.

It is.

But, believe it or not, people are preaching/teaching this for the truth.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[lismore]

It is.

But, believe it or not, people are preaching/teaching this for the truth.

God Bless

Till all are one.

That's concerning then, I agree and unnecessary too. There's so much in the bible we couldn't get through it in five lifetimes. No need for the apocrypha.

 

[now faith]

Those who write such commentary are self serving.
They want to add fiction and drama to God's Word.
In some ways it's demonic, the tale of Lilith and the river, for instance.
She turns into some evil spirit after not wanting Adam.
It reminds me of Mormon theology, how knowledge outside of God's Word is given by a latter day prophet.
So of the roots are in Jewish mysticism, Kaballah and the tree of life is esoteric Judaism.

On the giants ,some try to presume this passage confirms Angels mating with women produced them.
But you have to read careful to discern what the narrative means.

Genesis 6: 4. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The giants are not after the sons and daughters they are before.
I would presume dinosaurs.
You could cross reference sons of God and apply it to Angel as in Job.
But there are also references where we are the sons of God.
I would think it was Adams Children and the generations of Cain.
Even if we do not get the context we can not believe fiction either.
I do not think Angles could have relations with man or woman.


Matthew 22: 29. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

So Christ is saying we will be like Angels in Heaven ,who do not marry or are given in marriage.
I personally do not believe Angels can reproduce, but were created individually for God's purpose.

So that's my take on the theory I have heard.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

So Christ is saying we will be like Angels in Heaven ,who do not marry or are given in marriage.

I do not think Angles could have relations with man or woman.

There's a big difference between could not and do not. Even the Book of Enoch says they do not...(normally).

Matthew 22: 29. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

This verse doesn't seem to make a distinction between the two, necessarily. All we know is that the angels of God in Heaven do not, which doesn't disagree with the book you despise.

Also worth noting is that fallen angels are not, "of God in Heaven," and that your book of interest deals with fallen angels rather than the alternative.

 

[DeaconDean]

Jesus said:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." -Jn. 3:13 (KJV)

Jesus is a liar...that is according to Enoch.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JES1023]

Here is a question for anybody reading this:

Should the canon of the Old Testament be opened to include this "questionable" book?

God Bless

Till all are one.

No it shouldn't, Dean. IMO some of it is inspired but some also is very questionable.

Those who write such commentary are self serving.
They want to add fiction and drama to God's Word.
In some ways it's demonic, the tale of Lilith and the river, for instance.
She turns into some evil spirit after not wanting Adam.
It reminds me of Mormon theology, how knowledge outside of God's Word is given by a latter day prophet.
So of the roots are in Jewish mysticism, Kaballah and the tree of life is esoteric Judaism.

On the giants ,some try to presume this passage confirms Angels mating with women produced them.
But you have to read careful to discern what the narrative means.

Genesis 6: 4. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The giants are not after the sons and daughters they are before.
I would presume dinosaurs.
You could cross reference sons of God and apply it to Angel as in Job.
But there are also references where we are the sons of God.
I would think it was Adams Children and the generations of Cain.
Even if we do not get the context we can not believe fiction either.
I do not think Angles could have relations with man or woman.


Matthew 22: 29. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

So Christ is saying we will be like Angels in Heaven ,who do not marry or are given in marriage.
I personally do not believe Angels can reproduce, but were created individually for God's purpose.

So that's my take on the theory I have heard.

Yet let us remember the following of which Peter and Jude stated about the fallen angels:
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jude 6
These angels left their first estate and own habitation which means that they left heaven and change their appearance as to be humans. So yes the angels in heaven do not marry but these had left heaven to mate with women and change their estate/tabernacle or body from spiritual to physical.
4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, delivered them into the chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
II Peter 2:4-5
This passages seems to indicate that God did judge the angels for something so if angels married woman before the flood it gives us the reason. God's wrath would surely have been poured out on them for such an act.

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children unto them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Genesis 6:4
Many believe that and also after that refers to how the giants return to harass the children of Israel; after the flood. While the offspring of the of the angels and women would account for many of the myth in the world today this is why Moses wrote became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Some scholars also believe that the following ...they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another...
Daniel 2:43, refers to the fallen angels trying to procreate again.

I know this does not prove angels bedded women but it does give evidence that it may have happen.

Jesus said:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." -Jn. 3:13 (KJV)

Jesus is a liar...that is according to Enoch.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Ascended in John 3:13--anabaino GR, to go up of own power. Jesus is the only Man (since He was also God) to go to heaven by His own power. For Enoch was taken to heaven by God; Genesis 5:24. Elijah was token to heaven by a chariot of fire in a whirlwind by God, II Kings 2:11.
We also see this in reading Jesus ascend into heaven of his own in Acts 1:9.


So no I don't believe that the Book of Enoch is inspired, but I find parts of it; as long as they don't contradict the Bible to be a great read. And yes I agree there is some of Enoch that I find very questionable.

 

[DeaconDean]

So no I don't believe that the Book of Enoch is inspired, but I find parts of it; as long as they don't contradict the Bible to be a great read. And yes I agree there is some of Enoch that I find very questionable.

I believe that in chapter 80 or 81, Enoch wrote that he was taken up to heaven, allowed to see "heaven" wisdom, was allowed to return for one year to recuperate, teach his children what he saw, and then was taken back up to heaven.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Did it rain at any time prior to the flood?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[now faith]

I believe that in chapter 80 or 81, Enoch wrote that he was taken up to heaven, allowed to see "heaven" wisdom, was allowed to return for one year to recuperate, teach his children what he saw, and then was taken back up to heaven.

God Bless

Till all are one.

It does not agree with Schripture.

Genesis 5: 21. And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22. And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23. And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24. And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

The conjunction followed by a semicolon, in the sentence structure of verse 24 tells us Enoch disappeared for good when God took him.

Did it rain at any time prior to the flood?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Not 100 percent sure ,but based on what we know there are two mentions of rain in Genesis.

1 When speaking on creating Adam ; God Had not caused it to rain on the Earth.
2 When speaking to Noah ,God said He would cause it to rain.

Personally I do not believe it rained before the flood.
The use of the word cause is out of sorts if it had been raining before.

 

[DeaconDean]

It does not agree with Schripture.

Genesis 5: 21. And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22. And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23. And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24. And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

The conjunction followed by a semicolon, in the sentence structure of verse 24 tells us Enoch disappeared for good when God took him.



Not 100 percent sure ,but based on what we know there are two mentions of rain in Genesis.

1 When speaking on creating Adam ; God Had not caused it to rain on the Earth.
2 When speaking to Noah ,God said He would cause it to rain.

Personally I do not believe it rained before the flood.
The use of the word cause is out of sorts if it had been raining before.

Strictly speaking from the canon of scripture:

"But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground." -Gen. 2:6 (KJV)

From the time Adam was expelled from the Garden, until God closed the doors on the Ark, it had not rained.

Yet according to Enoch, it had.

In Chapter 2 of Enoch, you find this statement. “Behold the summer and the winter, how the whole earth is filled with water, and clouds and dew and rain lie upon it.”

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JES1023]

I believe that in chapter 80 or 81, Enoch wrote that he was taken up to heaven, allowed to see "heaven" wisdom, was allowed to return for one year to recuperate, teach his children what he saw, and then was taken back up to heaven.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I do have the Book of Enoch and have read some it; but really never felt that it was really inspiring to my spirit overall. And like I said wouldn't consider it to be equal in Canon to the 66 Books of the Bible. And will agree after reading the 2 chapters you spoke of 80-81 that those are highly questionable.
What I have try to do is compare other scriptures to see if some of the theory that Enoch; Jasher; Jubilee and also Josephus writing support; if these are supported by the Bible. Yes I have all the above books and do not consider any to be inspired by the Holy Spirit or on par with the Bible in any matter at all. Just believe there are enough Old Testament and New Testament verses to support the view of fallen angels with women.

Did it rain at any time prior to the flood?

God Bless

That is a tough question! I can't argue against what the Bible clearly says and what you stated earlier:
5) And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6) But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Genesis 2:5-6
For the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. By reading the first part of this verse I would agree with you. But when I read not a man to till the ground I ponder was the process by which God introduce rain due to no man being there or even to the curse after the fall of Adam, Genesis 3:18-19. I understand were you are coming from and really don't have a clue if it did rain before the flood are not.

I probably side a little more with rain before the flood but after the curse of our fall:
7) For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing: whose end is to burned.
Hebrews 6:7-8
Just seems that perhaps God causes the mist to come from the earth was His way of making sure it was good in his creation, but after the fall the curse; made it were we had to toil with the weather to bring about the fruit of the ground which God even told Adam would now bring forth thorns and thistles.


Till all are one.

Just wondering if you don't mind my asking, your reasoning for closing "Till all are one"?

 

[now faith]

Strictly speaking from the canon of scripture:

"But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground." -Gen. 2:6 (KJV)

From the time Adam was expelled from the Garden, until God closed the doors on the Ark, it had not rained.

Yet according to Enoch, it had.

In Chapter 2 of Enoch, you find this statement. “Behold the summer and the winter, how the whole earth is filled with water, and clouds and dew and rain lie upon it.”

God Bless

Till all are one.

That is why Enoch is not in the Canon.
I have studied some of the book of Enoch, since you started this thread.
This is my opinion only.
It reads like a provocative fantasy novel.
The Giants wanted Enoch to intervene on their behalf with God.
The Angels mated with animals and created dinosaurs, to combat the giants.
The giants ate people ,then turned to caniblesm on themselves.
Some giants were as tall as skyscrapers.

God Bless

 

[DeaconDean]

That is why Enoch is not in the Canon.
I have studied some of the book of Enoch, since you started this thread.
This is my opinion only.
It reads like a provocative fantasy novel.
The Giants wanted Enoch to intervene on their behalf with God.
The Angels mated with animals and created dinosaurs, to combat the giants.
The giants ate people ,then turned to caniblesm on themselves.
Some giants were as tall as skyscrapers.

God Bless

That has been my argument all along.

But there is a movement (look in the GT area) calling for the re-opening of the OT canon to include Enoch. For no other reason than the Ethiopian Church, has it in theirs. But they forget, they only included it around AD 1300, some 15-1600 years after it was written.

As far as I know, there are maybe 3 different renderings of the book of Enoch.

One version has the "giants" at 3000 ells. (ell=45 inches) Do the math.

One version has the "giants" at 3000 cubits. (cubit=roughly 18 inches) Do the math.

One version has the "giants" at 300 cubits. (cubit=roughly 18 inches) Do the math.

Wait until I tell what one member said about Adam and the Garden of Eden.

I'll tell you later.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Just wondering if you don't mind my asking, your reasoning for closing "Till all are one"?

Do you remember the first Transfomers movie?

The cartoon?

Till all are one!

Seems appropriate today that only when Christ returns, all Christians will all be one. No, denominations, no dogmas to separate, just life with God.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

That is why Enoch is not in the Canon.
I have studied some of the book of Enoch, since you started this thread.
This is my opinion only.
It reads like a provocative fantasy novel.
The Giants wanted Enoch to intervene on their behalf with God.
The Angels mated with animals and created dinosaurs, to combat the giants.
The giants ate people ,then turned to caniblesm on themselves.
Some giants were as tall as skyscrapers.

God Bless

As promised, here is what is being taught today for truth in regards to the Book of Enoch:

"Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
The word" to take" [Hebrew transliterated is "laquach"] and is the Hebrew word which means to take away, to remove from one place to another, to go get, to marry, and so on, it also means the word which we get "rapture" from. Enoch was raptured to heaven, and the first use of the word in Torah was when God "took" a rib bone from Adam and built an "ishyah", for him, a female Adam person.
You can search out the use of the word for yourself, and learn: Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
God raptured/took from one place to another the firstborn in Adam, so as to rule from heaven which is where Paradise is, and there was free going in and out before the fall, at which time Adam was "cast down to earth below" and forbidden to return by any means in that defiled flesh, lest he eat of the Tree of Life and be defiled in that flesh forever -and then could never have been redeemed and changed to the Glory body (and only fit to be an undying worm in that body, in the Lake of Fire, forever]...which is why Adam got cast down from the third heaven, where Paradise is, as the Bible teaches."

Did you get that?

1. The Garden of Eden was never on earth.
2. Adam was in the 3rd heaven.
3. He was cast out of heaven when he sinned to keep him from gaining access to the Tree of Life.

Not to mention:

"Enoch returned to earth in his own untransformed body after he was shown all things, and had one year to write many books and be taken up/raptured, ascend to heaven in his own transformed body. He rules and reigns with the Watcher angels there, and is a shadow and type of the remaining alive on earth Church which will be raptured in transformed bodies along with those who departed their bodies in the ages since the Church was established."

Now remember, this is one individuals knowledge gained from reading Enoch, and then applying it to the scriptures.

Now, unless I've read scriptures completely wrong, there is a mention of two (2) Trees of Life. One in Genesis, and one in Revelation.

The one in Genesis mentions:

"And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.' -Gen. 2:9 (KJV)

Now why is this important? Because of what is said in the next verse:

"And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads." (v. 10)

This is not the same description given in Revelation.

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." -Rev. 22:2 (KJV)

There is no description on Rev. 22:2 that says that river parts into four others.

Adam was not in the third heaven because Eden was on earth and God "planted" him there. And it is there, one of the four rivers from Eden is the river Euphrates. (v. 14) And unless I'm completely stupid, doesn't the river Euphrates flow through Iraq?

Unless there was a "waterfall" that reached from heaven all the way down to earth.

That is why I say: "You can't make this stuff up".

God Bless

Till all are one.