You can't be both.

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I don't give a rat'w what your own personal, private definition is... you can define murder as little pink unicorns in your own private language if you like... but when engaging in public discussion, you have no right to demand the language's established, commonly recognised definitions change to accomodate you.

Take your pick of negative words that you can use APPROPRIATELY to describe abortion, should you so choose. Immoral, wrong, unethical, sinful, evil, whatever. Go for it. BUT MURDER WILL NEVER BE AN APPROPRIATE HOMONYM FOR ABORTION AS LONG AS IT IS LEGAL!

calm down



The issue here is that you are arguing from a legal perspective, while the rest are arguing from a christian perspective. The two are not the same, and cannot be argued as such.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

yes He did.
[bible]Exodus 20:13[/bible]

the english translations for the hebrew and greek are fine.

the only misuse here is by those who devalue human life to justify killing it.

I;m not devaluing anything, I'm corectly defing a word.

There are many examples of legal killings I think are wrong, that I am repulsed by.

its still not murder

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I;m not devaluing anything, I'm corectly defing a word.

There are many examples of legal killings I think are wrong, that I am repulsed by.

its still not murder

A recurring theme in the bible is for us to protect and care for the innocent, the fatherless and the widow, for ex. The killing of the innocent is murder, regardless of the civil legality. I don't believe self-defense is murder, but if I ever was in the situation I'd repent and mourn the loss of life.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

A recurring theme in the bible is for us to protect and care for the innocent, the fatherless and the widow, for ex. The killing of the innocent is murder, regardless of the civil legality. I don't believe self-defense is murder, but if I ever was in the situation I'd repent and mourn the loss of life.

Thats NOT what MURDER MEANS!

Why are you so determined to use this word wrongly? What do you think it gains you?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Thats NOT what MURDER MEANS!

Why are you so determined to use this word wrongly? What do you think it gains you?

Why are you determined to consider man's legal definition over the word more than God's?

It gains me nothing, it only better defines the term abortion, because devaluing a human life (by avoiding calling it by human terms) does not make it any less of a human life, and therefore still a murder. Do you think infanticide is murder?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Why are you determined to consider man's legal definition over the word more than God's?

It gains me nothing, it only better defines the term abortion, because devaluing a human life (by avoiding calling it by human terms) does not make it any less of a human life, and therefore still a murder. Do you think infanticide is murder?

Because language is a construct of Man, and God never provided definitions of words?

God never called abortion murder, indeed, God never daid anything in english... so lets stick to the shorter Oxford English for word definitions, rather than imbuing translated words with the power of God that they never had.

Of course I think infanticide is murder.

BECAUSE ITS ILLEGAL! Thats what murder MEANS; illegal killing.

If its legal, its not murder.

Do you think Abortion is immoral?

Do you think its unethical?

Do you think its wrong?

Do you think its evil?

Do you think its bad?

Do you think its unjust?

Do you think its unconcionable?

 

[BAFRIEND]

God never called abortion murder, indeed, God never daid anything in english... so lets stick to the shorter Oxford English for word definitions, rather than imbuing translated words with the power of God that they never had.

Collateral damage is the term the military uses to describe when innocent non-combatants are killed by military action.

Has a nice disengaging non-emotional and indifferent ring to it, right ? You could read a an after action report that includes a remark about collateral damage and never even understanding the meaning of the code: innocent civilians killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is the kind of word play used by the baby butcher crowd.

A baby's life becomes a choice. But even this is a lie as Roe v. Wade was interpreted as a right to privacy, not choice.

It is not a right to choose- it is a right to do evil in the dark.

As Christians we aknowledge that God has laws. These laws are in fact coded in the Bible.

Thou Shalt not kill.

That is a law.

Regardless of how you cut it (ignore the pun as one was not originally intended) a baby at any stage is a living organism.

abortion is murder, ipso facto.

Emotional blackmail: not from the baby's point of view.

 

[JoabAnias]

I don't give a rat'w what your own personal, private definition is... you can define murder as little pink unicorns in your own private language if you like... but when engaging in public discussion, you have no right to demand the language's established, commonly recognised definitions change to accomodate you.

Take your pick of negative words that you can use APPROPRIATELY to describe abortion, should you so choose. Immoral, wrong, unethical, sinful, evil, whatever. Go for it. BUT MURDER WILL NEVER BE AN APPROPRIATE HOMONYM FOR ABORTION AS LONG AS IT IS LEGAL!

Its not just my definition my sweet friend, it is that of the Church and the whole Christian world and always has been. So the reality of it is that secular forces are attempting to change the definition of murder to suit secular beliefs (just as in the cases of ethnic cleansings) instead of conforming those beliefs to what God has said and where the rubber meets the road:

Exodus 23:7 - See that the man who is innocent and just is not done to death, and do not acquit the guilty

Psalm 139:13-16 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

Jeremiah 1:4-6 The word of the Lord came to me saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Galatians 1:15 But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me . . .

Psalm 127:3 Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from him.

Leviticus 20:1-5 The Lord said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites: Any Israelite or alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him. I will set my face against that man and I will cut him off from his people; for by giving his children to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech and they fail to put him to death, I will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molech."

Matthew 18:10 See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my father in heaven.

Isaiah 45:9-10 Woe to him who quarrels with the Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Do the clay say to the potter, "What are you making?" Do your works say, "He has no hands?" Woe to him who says to his father, "What have you begotten?" Or to his mother, "What have you brought to birth?"

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I Corinthians 6:19-20 Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

What is at stake are womens souls and the lives of innocent children.

As said in the Didache (teaching of the 12) in the first century.

If you disagree with Gods definition of murder, perhaps you should take this up with God in prayer to the Holy Spirit to show you the truth.

Peace sister.

 

[JoabAnias]

Do you think Abortion is immoral?

Do you think its unethical?

Do you think its wrong?

Do you think its evil?

Do you think its bad?

Do you think its unjust?

Do you think its unconcionable?

Please answer your own questions.

Peace.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Collateral damage is the term the military uses to describe when innocent non-combatants are killed by military action.

Has a nice disengaging non-emotional and indifferent ring to it, right ? You could read a an after action report that includes a remark about collateral damage and never even understanding the meaning of the code: innocent civilians killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is the kind of word play used by the baby butcher crowd.

A baby's life becomes a choice. But even this is a lie as Roe v. Wade was interpreted as a right to privacy, not choice.

It is not a right to choose- it is a right to do evil in the dark.

As Christians we aknowledge that God has laws. These laws are in fact coded in the Bible.

Thou Shalt not kill.

That is a law.

Regardless of how you cut it (ignore the pun as one was not originally intended) a baby at any stage is a living organism.

abortion is murder, ipso facto.

Emotional blackmail: not from the baby's point of view.

A. a Baby is different to a foetus, same as a teenager is different to a toddler.

B. The commandment is "thou shalt not MURDER"

C. Murder is a legal term, refering to illegal killing. If a killing is legal, it can't be murder.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Its not just my definition my sweet friend, it is that of the Church and the whole Christian world and always has been. So the reality of it is that secular forces are attempting to change the definition of murder to suit secular beliefs (just as in the cases of ethnic cleansings) instead of conforming those beliefs to what God has said and where the rubber meets the road:

Nonsense. The church has not always spoken English.

You're wrong.

 

[Avatar]

C. Murder is a legal term, refering to illegal killing. If a killing is legal, it can't be murder.

Sweetie, when the Nazis killed the Jews it wasn't murder since they declared it legal, right? When a Christian uses the term 'murder' he doesn't refer to the law of the land he refers to God's law. Give this up. You're making yourself look ridiculous.

 

[flicka]

You should call it "killing" not "murder" by definition. EnemyPartyII is correct. The instance on using the word "murder" seems to be more important than the topic at hand. Ego's and all that I suppose.

 

[SolomonVII]

As far as I know, this thread is not addressing so much what the secular laws have to say about what the definition of murder is. It is specific to what the Catholic Chruch defines murder as being. "You cannot be both" is specific to the Catholic teaching.
One only has to go as far as the Catechism of the Catholic Church to understand that abortion is included in the discussion of the fifth commandment, that is the commandment that states "Thou shalt not kill".

javascript:openWindow('cr/2261.htm');

2261 Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: "Do not slay the innocent and the righteous."61 The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.

javascript:openWindow('cr/2261.htm');javascript:openWindow('cr/2261.htm');javascript:openWindow('cr/2261.htm');

Quite clearly then, the Catholic Church leaves a clear understanding that the deliberate slaying of a human life is by defintion murder, and that the embryo and fetus is to be treated in every respect as any person shall be.

Secular law can say what it wants. But for Catholics anyways, it is the clear teaching that God's law is the true law. To the extent that the secular law reflects God's law, the regime is under God's protection, and is ruled according to the laws of life.

Secular law does not invalidate God's law. God's law is still considered to be universally valid.

So certainly, to the extent that a person defines him or herself as a Christian, or more specifically for the purposes of this thread, a Catholic, abortion places itself completely within the discussion of the firth commandment, and murder is indeed the appropriate term as illegal killing.

This thread after all, has defined itself in terms of Catholic teaching. Hence, it is a little presumptous if not downright arrogant for those outside of the faith to impose their own secular defintion of the law as being the absolute standard of law.
As if there could not possibly be any other interpretation of law than what thier own secular parliaments have decided upon, they presume that even the dictionary must conform to the legal beliefs of the abortion industry.

 

[SolomonVII]

You should call it "killing" not "murder" by definition. EnemyPartyII is correct. The instance on using the word "murder" seems to be more important than the topic at hand. Ego's and all that I suppose.


And yet more of the same blind conceited arrogance and close-mindeness!
How can it be that people cannot even conceive of the idea that there may be a law that is not defined by the Barracks and the billaries of the world.
It is not enough that God's laws are ignored by the abortionists.
Nay, now these laws are now regarded as non-existent, non-entitities by these people, as if there is no law but the laws of their own legislatures.

 

[JoabAnias]

Nonsense. The church has not always spoken English.

You're wrong.

Do you want the same words in Latin, Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew before you will believe them. The Didache was in ancient languages, have you read it?


Didache
The oldest surviving Christian church order, probably written in Egypt or Syria in the 2nd century. In 16 short chapters it deals with morals and ethics, church practice, and the eschatological hope.

2:2 Thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not corrupt youth; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal;


thou shalt not use soothsaying; thou shalt not practise sorcery;

thou shalt not kill a child by abortion,​

neither shalt thou slay it when born;​

thou shalt not covet the goods of thy neighbour;​

The definition you were given is from the Church of billions of Christians pre-existing your 30 year old law by millenia as is the Catechism cited above. If you choose to remain obstinate then you risk your own soul and the life of your future children. Have you already had an abortion or commited fornication that you need to justify somehow by this fruitless argument over symantics? I pray God gives you whatever you need dear one.​

Peace.​

​

 

[BAFRIEND]

a Baby is different to a foetus, same as a teenager is different to a toddler.

But we still maintain our identitys throughout our life stages.

Life stages.

 

[Diane_Windsor]

“The penalty of excommunication for abortion extends to the mother, all medical personnel, . . .” p. 77 The Catholic Answer Book vol 1, Rev. Peter M.J. Stravinskas PH.D S.T.D.

Congregation for the Doctorine of Faith: Declaration on Abortion . . .

Are you a Canon Laywer? If not then I would remain silent upon matters that a lay RC with no training in canon law does not understand.

I've never understood this phenomenon. I would never presume to know or understand the intricasies of American civil law (or dictate to other Americans that they were breaking laws, etc.) without thoroughly being trained in American civil law.

 

[BAFRIEND]

Are you a Canon Laywer? If not then I would remain silent upon matters that a lay RC with no training in canon law does not understand.

I've never understood this phenomenon. I would never presume to know or understand the intricasies of American civil law (or dictate to other Americans that they were breaking laws, etc.) without thoroughly being trained in American civil law.

I did not write that, it is a quote from a Catholic Priest who has more than 30 books on sale on Amazon.com all on Catholic theology and history. He has two Phds and has been an editor of several Catholic magazines.

And the teachings of the Catholic Church on abortion are no secret. The Church states abortion is murder.

Under your policy, we could never follow the directives of the RCC or any moral theology unless we were all canon lawyers.

And no I will not remain silent while babys are being butchered.

 

[SolomonVII]

Are you a Canon Laywer? If not then I would remain silent upon matters that a lay RC with no training in canon law does not understand.

I've never understood this phenomenon. I would never presume to know or understand the intricasies of American civil law (or dictate to other Americans that they were breaking laws, etc.) without thoroughly being trained in American civil law.


When politics are left to the lawyers and the experts, the whole process is in deep doo-doo. The people are the source of law in America, and not the lawyers. The lawyers can make their arguments, but the people make the laws. When people consider them too insignificant or ignorant to perform thier roles, this gives tyrants all the space they need to coalesce power to ther own selves.

For Catholics too, Vatican II spells out clearly that the laity are very much expected- and needed -to take an active role in all matters of faith. Sleeping through the sermon and sticking out the tongue at the appropriate time is not what the faith is all about anymore, if ever it was!