You can't be both.

[Avatar]

I agree I'm pedantic.

But misusing words doesn't help anyone. If you want to argue against abortion, please, be my guest. If you want to argue for making it illegal, be my guest. If you want to argue that its immoral, please, fill your boots to your hearts content.

Just don't use words inappropriately, and ESPECIALLY don't try to base an emotional argument on misused words.

If you understand both the argument and the intent despite the incorrect word, as you have stated you do, why waste time (both yours and ours) with pointles quibbling over whether the correct word was used? It makes folk think you have no genuine objection to the point (whatever it happened to be). You do your position a disservice.

 

[Avatar]

Just don't use words inappropriately, and ESPECIALLY don't try to base an emotional argument on misused words.

Now this is a huge and wrong assumption. My argument for life has no emotional component. I was an atheist up until 3 years ago. I was always pro-life. Why? Because I and every other human being, began at conception. We grew from there. Pro-choice arguments are that the life has not grown far enough or long enough to have rights. You choose when it began, arbitrarily. You can choose 3 months or 6, or when there's a circulatory system or a nervous system or when there's cognitive awareness (think that one's after birth) or when it can survive on it's own or not. But life begins when it begins, the one time its not arbitrary - at conception. I believed this as an atheist, I believe it now.

 

[JoabAnias]

You are certainly free to make the argument it is wrong, and I will listen to you.

Just don't misuse words, thats wrong too

The whole point is that it is wrong.

Using the word murder for the killing of an innocent is not wrong usage.

Would you say Hitler murdering Jews was correct because his government sanctioned it? Or any other example of ethnic cleansing in the world is less than murder even though governments santioned them?

To say that an immoral killing of an innocent life is not murder is anything but correct usage.

Peace.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Now this is a huge and wrong assumption. My argument for life has no emotional component. I was an atheist up until 3 years ago. I was always pro-life. Why? Because I and every other human being, began at conception. We grew from there. Pro-choice arguments are that the life has not grown far enough or long enough to have rights. You choose when it began, arbitrarily. You can choose 3 months or 6, or when there's a circulatory system or a nervous system or when there's cognitive awareness (think that one's after birth) or when it can survive on it's own or not. But life begins when it begins, the one time its not arbitrary - at conception. I believed this as an atheist, I believe it now.

If your argument has no emotional component, then use the darn language correctly.

Abortion is not, can not, and will never be murder as long as it is legal.

The instant it is made illegal you can start arguing for it to be called murder, but until that time, it is just the wrong word to use.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Using the word murder for the killing of an innocent is not wrong usage.

YES IT IS!

Murder has nothing to do with the innocence or otherwise of the victim.

Murder means ILLEGAL killing... nothing more, nothing less.

So if its a LEGAL killing, its NOT MURDER. You can argue that it should be illegal, and that it is immoral all you like... but as long as abortion is legal, it can never be murder.

Would you say Hitler murdering Jews was correct because his government sanctioned it? Or any other example of ethnic cleansing in the world is less than murder even though governments santioned them?

This has nothing to do with correctness or otherwise, of acts this is to do with the co0rrectness or otherwise of WORDS.

It is possible to kill someone immorrally, yet it be completely legal, and likewise, it is possible to morrally kill someone, and yet be guilty of murder.

Murder is a LEGAL term, not a MORAL term.

To say that an immoral killing of an innocent life is not murder is anything but correct usage.

In your head, possibly. But to anyone who complies with the correct usage of English, as defined by various non-partisan objective dictionaries, that is NOT what murder means.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

If your argument has no emotional component, then use the darn language correctly.

Abortion is not, can not, and will never be murder as long as it is legal.

The instant it is made legal you can start arguing for it to be called murder, but until that time, it is just the wrong word to use.

You are defending PC here. I think most people here are arguing based on their own ethics and morals, and that being said, it is fair for someone to use the term 'murder' for this, regardless of its current legality. It's no different than calling the holocaust 'ethnic cleansing' because the term 'murder' wasn't pc at the time ( in nazi germany)

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

YES IT IS!

Murder has nothing to do with the innocence or otherwise of the victim.

Murder means ILLEGAL killing... nothing more, nothing less.

So if its a LEGAL killing, its NOT MURDER. You can argue that it should be illegal, and that it is immoral all you like... but as long as abortion is legal, it can never be murder.This has nothing to do with correctness or otherwise, of acts this is to do with the co0rrectness or otherwise of WORDS.

It is possible to kill someone immorrally, yet it be completely legal, and likewise, it is possible to morrally kill someone, and yet be guilty of murder.

Murder is a LEGAL term, not a MORAL term.In your head, possibly. But to anyone who complies with the correct usage of English, as defined by various non-partisan objective dictionaries, that is NOT what murder means.

which brings me to my next question. Whose laws do you hold higher, God's or mans?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

You are defending PC here. I think most people here are arguing based on their own ethics and morals, and that being said, it is fair for someone to use the term 'murder' for this, regardless of its current legality. It's no different than calling the holocaust 'ethnic cleansing' because the term 'murder' wasn't pc at the time ( in nazi germany)

Its not bloody PC, its ENGLISH! CORRECT ENGLISH!

Call abortion immoral, call it evil, call it unethical, and I won't stop you. BUT ITS NOT MURDER

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
mur·der

/ˈmɜr

dər/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mur-der]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation–noun

1.Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law.

4.Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.

 

[Avatar]

If your argument has no emotional component, then use the darn language correctly.

Abortion is not, can not, and will never be murder as long as it is legal.

The instant it is made illegal you can start arguing for it to be called murder, but until that time, it is just the wrong word to use.

Back to being pedantic.

 

[Avatar]

Its not bloody PC, its ENGLISH! CORRECT ENGLISH!

Call abortion immoral, call it evil, call it unethical, and I won't stop you. BUT ITS NOT MURDER

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
mur·der

/ˈmɜr

dər/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mur-der]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation–noun

1.Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law.

4.Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.

Don't blow a gasket now.

We're the ones who are supposed to be resorting to emotionalism, remember?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Its not bloody PC, its ENGLISH! CORRECT ENGLISH!

Call abortion immoral, call it evil, call it unethical, and I won't stop you. BUT ITS NOT MURDER

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
mur·der

/ˈmɜr

dər/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mur-der]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation–noun

1.Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law.

4.Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.

So do you live by worldly definitions or God's? Sacrificing animals to a house plant is not blasphemy according to the dictionary either, but how do you think God feels about that?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

mur·der

/ˈmɜr

dər/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mur-der]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation–noun

1.Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law.

4.Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.

[bible]exodus 20:13[/bible]

mmkay

 

[BAFRIEND]

Don't blow a gasket now.

We're the ones who are supposed to be resorting to emotionalism, remember?

Yep, calling abortion murder is emotional blackmail.

Maybe it would be best to just to refer to abortion as collateral damage.

 

[JoabAnias]

YES IT IS!

Murder has nothing to do with the innocence or otherwise of the victim.

Murder means ILLEGAL killing... nothing more, nothing less.

Nope it isn't,

"Thou shall not kill."


Not by my definition, it is as follows:

MURDER

The unjust killing of an innocent person. Directly to intend killing of an innocent person is forbidden either to a private citizen or to the State, and this even in order to secure the common good. God has supreme and exclusive ownership over human lives, and so he is the only one who has the right to allow the taking of a human life. He confers on civil authority the right to take the life of a condemned criminal only when this is necessary for achieving the just purposes of the State. In a commentary passage on the Decalogue, divine revelation commands: "See that the man who is innocent and just is not done to death, and do not acquit the guilty" (Exodus 23:7).


This unjust law is superfluous as is any secular government who says it is legal because it reaches into the realm of morality and emergent totalitarianism. Men cannot abrogate Gods laws. In fact Gods law abrogates theirs.

The laws of men are not always those of God?

Peace.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Back to being pedantic.

ABSOLUTELY I'm being pedantic! The language is a rapier, not a bludgeon, use it CORRECTLY!

 

[EnemyPartyII]

So do you live by worldly definitions or God's? Sacrificing animals to a house plant is not blasphemy according to the dictionary either, but how do you think God feels about that?

God notoriously never defined abortion as murder... in fact, he never defined ANYTHING in ENGLISH.

Now, if you want to use ancient Hebrew or Greek, the original languages of the Bible, I won't correct you. But I know about English, and the are definitions of words for a reason.

Just why the heck do you want to misuse a word that has clear definitions?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

mur·der

/ˈmɜr

dər/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mur-der]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation–noun

1.Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law.

4.Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.

[bible]exodus 20:13[/bible]

mmkay

How many translations did you have to go through before finding that version?

But hey, OK, lets pretend for a moment the commandment IS thous shalt not kill... does that make the military sinners? how about the police? State sanctioned execution? How about killing someone in self defense?

How about all the times the Bible says its OK to kill someone? Is that a Biblical contradiction, or is "thous shalt not kill" a mistranslation. Take your pick.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Nope it isn't,

"Thou shall not kill."


Not by my definition, it is as follows:

MURDER

The unjust killing of an innocent person. Directly to intend killing of an innocent person is forbidden either to a private citizen or to the State, and this even in order to secure the common good. God has supreme and exclusive ownership over human lives, and so he is the only one who has the right to allow the taking of a human life. He confers on civil authority the right to take the life of a condemned criminal only when this is necessary for achieving the just purposes of the State. In a commentary passage on the Decalogue, divine revelation commands: "See that the man who is innocent and just is not done to death, and do not acquit the guilty" (Exodus 23:7).


This unjust law is superfluous as is any secular government who says it is legal because it reaches into the realm of morality and emergent totalitarianism. Men cannot abrogate Gods laws. In fact Gods law abrogates theirs.

The laws of men are not always those of God?

Peace.

I don't give a rat'w what your own personal, private definition is... you can define murder as little pink unicorns in your own private language if you like... but when engaging in public discussion, you have no right to demand the language's established, commonly recognised definitions change to accomodate you.

Take your pick of negative words that you can use APPROPRIATELY to describe abortion, should you so choose. Immoral, wrong, unethical, sinful, evil, whatever. Go for it. BUT MURDER WILL NEVER BE AN APPROPRIATE HOMONYM FOR ABORTION AS LONG AS IT IS LEGAL!

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

God notoriously never defined abortion as murder... in fact, he never defined ANYTHING in ENGLISH.

yes He did.
[bible]Exodus 20:13[/bible]

Now, if you want to use ancient Hebrew or Greek, the original languages of the Bible, I won't correct you. But I know about English, and the are definitions of words for a reason.

the english translations for the hebrew and greek are fine.

Just why the heck do you want to misuse a word that has clear definitions?

the only misuse here is by those who devalue human life to justify killing it.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

How many translations did you have to go through before finding that version?

I don't know, its the one that the forum uses, because its pulled up by a forum tag ([ bible] verse[ /bible]

But hey, OK, lets pretend for a moment the commandment IS thous shalt not kill... does that make the military sinners? how about the police? State sanctioned execution? How about killing someone in self defense?

I was using it in the context of murdering, which I think is what it originally applied to.

How about all the times the Bible says its OK to kill someone? Is that a Biblical contradiction, or is "thous shalt not kill" a mistranslation. Take your pick.

Hey, thanks for giving me only 2 options. I'll take neither. I think its translation is not descriptive enough.