You can't be both.

[JoabAnias]

I'm at a loss about this whole "does life begin at conception" thing... of course it does.

But again, so what?

The same as post #429

Peace.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

What scientific or religious evidence do you base this belief on.

Most religions hold to the souls existence prior to ones incarnation.

There are however concocted notions to support placing a value judgement on anothers life.

Especially in these days of men with itching ears needing to hear what they agree with.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

They come as a package at the moment of conception sister.

Peace.

Really? Where's it written that souls exist before conception?

And further, if this is the case, why don't we remember anything prior to conception? (And usually good deal after)

This is what I believe, based on my own understanding of biology and theology, as well as my own personal meditation on the matter. I don't claim to be right and anyone else is wrong, but I don't see any evidence that anyone has a better case than I do.

 

[ScottBot]

I know just as firmly as anyone else does.

Got any proof of when a foetus gets a soul superior to my own theorising?

Nope, but at least I am not pretending that I do. Scripture seems to indicate that the soul is infused at the begining of life. It doesn;t state it explicitly, so I'd rather err on the side of life.

 

[ScottBot]

Indeed. But how many people die in hospitals every year from treatable conditions, because the resources that could have saved them went to someone else with a better prognosis?

withholding treatment, for whatever reason, it not the same as actively killing them.

 

[JoabAnias]

I don't understand why I'm being criticised for making value judgements... Isn't "a single cell human zygote is as worthy of life as a two year old toddler" just as much a value judgement as anything I have said?

I'm not criticizing you sister, I hear what your saying. Please don't take this as criticism. You have free will. I do not attempt to penalize you that but only seek understanding.

I am only trying to point out that those value judgements you mention, if made outside of moral and ethical choices in favor of the sanctity of life cross the line of whats just and what isn't.

These choice of abortion are for the most part needless and avoidable and thus unjust.

Its incorrect to justify one unjust act because of another unrelated one.

Its a form of fascism that has made the hypocratic oath an hypocrisy itself.

Peace.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

The same as post #429

Peace.

Who give any person the authority to determine the value of a life at any particular stage of development?

The same person who gives anyone the authority to make any value judgement, I guess...?

Or are we not allowed to make value judgements at al now?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Nope, but at least I am not pretending that I do. Scripture seems to indicate that the soul is infused at the begining of life. It doesn;t state it explicitly, so I'd rather err on the side of life.

Where does scripture say anything remotely like that?

And I take issue with your implication that I am saying I have all the answers... I freely admit what I'm writing is merely my opinion... although I will claim that my opinion is based on biology, logic, neuro-mechanics psychology and my understanding of theology

 

[ScottBot]

Where does scripture say anything remotely like that?

And I take issue with your implication that I am saying I have all the answers... I freely admit what I'm writing is merely my opinion... although I will claim that my opinion is based on biology, logic, neuro-mechanics psychology and my understanding of theology

That whole thing about God knitting me in my mother's womb. Note the psalmist doesn't say "knitting my body", he says ME. A person, in the theological sense of the word, is the hypostatic union of body and soul. Since we have already covered that life begins at conception, we can make a safe assumption that is when God starts His work.

 

[JoabAnias]

The same person who gives anyone the authority to make any value judgement, I guess...?

Or are we not allowed to make value judgements at al now?

Of course we must make them. Our basis for how we make them is what matters.

Ethics and morality are not relative. They are defined explicitly as doing the "right" thing.

It has always been the case that morally all life is respected as sacred until Roe vs. Wade 31 yrs ago. (As well as many other examples of blatant violation of the civil human rights to life throughout many examples of oppressions in history).

One difference here with abortion is there is the plight of the marginalized woman who often feels helpless or even forced to make this choice by her circumstances.

Its important to note that those of us who voice abortion is such a abominable tragedy are not oblivious to this dilemma and are working to provide both practical and spiritual alternatives. We don't blame the woman or the child but neither can we support a form of eugenics fascism in an otherwise "free" and democratic society.

I will tell you though that secular organizations have no problems trying to force charitable ones to fit their agendas.

Peace.

 

[JoabAnias]

Really? Where's it written that souls exist before conception?

And further, if this is the case, why don't we remember anything prior to conception? (And usually good deal after)

This is what I believe, based on my own understanding of biology and theology, as well as my own personal meditation on the matter. I don't claim to be right and anyone else is wrong, but I don't see any evidence that anyone has a better case than I do.

Well because our souls do not reside in our brain and is not evident by our concsiousness.

In St. Paul we find a more technical phraseology employed with great consistency.

Psyche is now appropriated to the purely natural life; pneuma to the life of supernatural religion, the principle of which is the Holy Spirit, dwelling and operating in the heart. The opposition of flesh and spirit is accentuated afresh (Romans 1:18, etc.).

This Pauline system, presented to a world already prepossessed in favour of a quasi-Platonic Dualism, occasioned one of the earliest widespread forms of error among Christian writers -- the doctrine of the Trichotomy. According to this, man, perfect man (teleios) consists of three parts: body, soul, spirit (soma, psyche, pneuma).

Body and soul come by natural generation; spirit is given to the regenerate Christian alone. Thus, the "newness of life", of which St. Paul speaks, was conceived by some as a superadded entity, a kind of oversoul sublimating the "natural man" into a higher species.

Peace.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

That whole thing about God knitting me in my mother's womb. Note the psalmist doesn't say "knitting my body", he says ME. A person, in the theological sense of the word, is the hypostatic union of body and soul. Since we have already covered that life begins at conception, we can make a safe assumption that is when God starts His work.

a. I think you are reading to much into it
b. It says "in the womb" not "at conception"

 

[EnemyPartyII]

It has always been the case that morally all life is respected as sacred until Roe vs. Wade 31 yrs ago. (As well as many other examples of blatant violation of the civil human rights to life throughout many examples of oppressions in history).

Really? So, why is so much of the OT taken up with when it is acceptible, and, indeed, required, to kill people?

One difference here with abortion is there is the plight of the marginalized woman who often feels helpless or even forced to make this choice by her circumstances.

Its important to note that those of us who voice abortion is such a abominable tragedy are not oblivious to this dilemma and are working to provide both practical and spiritual alternatives. We don't blame the woman or the child but neither can we support a form of eugenics fascism in an otherwise "free" and democratic society.

I will tell you though that secular organizations have no problems trying to force charitable ones to fit their agendas.

Are you somehow suggesting that, by allowing women the right to choose for themselves they are somhow FORCED to have abortions?

Well because our souls do not reside in our brain and is not evident by our concsiousness.

If my soul is seperate to my conciousness, then why should I (my concious self) care about it?

In St. Paul we find a more technical phraseology employed with great consistency.

Psyche is now appropriated to the purely natural life; pneuma to the life of supernatural religion, the principle of which is the Holy Spirit, dwelling and operating in the heart. The opposition of flesh and spirit is accentuated afresh (Romans 1:18, etc.).

You ARE aware that reference to "pneuma" is actually reference to anything that breaths? This being the basis of the traditional, Talmudic belief that a foetus isn't technically "alive" until it draws its first breath? I think you shoot your own argument down by bringing this up.

 

[JoabAnias]

Really? So, why is so much of the OT taken up with when it is acceptible, and, indeed, required, to kill people?

Much of that Mosaic law was fulfilled by the New Covenant between Man and God as secured by Jesus. Here are a couple of examples, The old law said a man should be stoned to death for not having a beard, there was no chance of salvation without circumcision, wool must never touch the flesh, nothing unclean must be eaten etc etc. In fact there are 612 such laws known as the Mitzvot by orthodox Jews who still await the first coming of the Messiah who we know has already arrived in the person of Yahsua.

Are you somehow suggesting that, by allowing women the right to choose for themselves they are somhow FORCED to have abortions?

Oh no, not at all. I made that reference because there are cases of subtle inuendos made and even coercions by some for an abortion versus a more practicle or viable alternative. In the profession your entering your likely to see that from certain organizations but it goes beyond that too to something as simple as a boyfriend fighting her for it or a family disowning her for not making that choice.

If my soul is seperate to my conciousness, then why should I (my concious self) care about it?

Because the soul lives on beyond the body into eternity. The soul was created by God to be united to Him.

You ARE aware that reference to "pneuma" is actually reference to anything that breaths? This being the basis of the traditional, Talmudic belief that a foetus isn't technically "alive" until it draws its first breath?

Yes the origins but the origins evolved from there into the fulfillment of the Christ and His teaching so its fulfilled through Jesus.

I think you shoot your own argument down by bringing this up.

Perhaps in its simplist terms without the whole story. I am impressed you picked up on that, however the point I was trying to make is that the body and soul are united at our incarnation and the spirit is a gift later on. (as described through the Church as being born again or water and spirit, neither of which is said to imply that were not sentient before this but at our first moment of existence). You see sister, for me it really comes down to Gods will and what that is concerning the conceived or any life for that matter. Its not always easy to know what Gods will is I understand. Through Jesus there is no precedent for deciding that ourselves or denying God His right of ownership over all of us.

Peace.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Much of that Mosaic law was fulfilled by the New Covenant between Man and God as secured by Jesus. Here are a couple of examples, The old law said a man should be stoned to death for not having a beard, there was no chance of salvation without circumcision, wool must never touch the flesh, nothing unclean must be eaten etc etc. In fact there are 612 such laws known as the Mitzvot by orthodox Jews who still await the first coming of the Messiah who we know has already arrived in the person of Yahsua.

Indeed, and props for your Biblical knowledge, however, this does not really address the point that life has NOT always been considered sacred, as the Bible makes clear.

Oh no, not at all. I made that reference because there are cases of subtle inuendos made and even coercions by some for an abortion versus a more practicle or viable alternative. In the profession your entering your likely to see that from certain organizations but it goes beyond that too to something as simple as a boyfriend fighting her for it or a family disowning her for not making that choice.

I don't know if you have seen me say it elsewhere, but I am firmly pro-life. I don't think so called "abortions of convenience" are EVER the best option. find the idea of anyone being forced, or pressured into having an abortion that is, in anyway, against their will utterly repugnant. However, that said, I STILL support a woman's right to choose... so I'm not sure how to address your concerns about undue pressure, without eliminating a woman's right to chose. Once again, we are left seeking the pragmatic "best available" solution.

Because the soul lives on beyond the body into eternity. The soul was created by God to be united to Him.

Yes, that fine... but if the soul isn't "me" (i.e. the conciousness writing this) why should I care about it?

Yes the origins but the origins evolved from there into the fulfillment of the Christ and His teaching so its fulfilled through Jesus.

Really? Jesus was raised in the Talmudic tradition, and, given his unsurpassed knowledge of the Talmud, he was presumeably familiar with the idea that "personhood begins with the first breath"... if so, and if he wanted people to consider personhood as starting earlier, don't you think it odd he didn't mention it?

Perhaps in its simplist terms without the whole story. I am impressed you picked up on that, however the point I was trying to make is that the body and soul are united at our incarnation and the spirit is a gift later on. (as described through the Church as being born again or water and spirit, neither of which is said to imply that were not sentient before this but at our first moment of existence). You see sister, for me it really comes down to Gods will and what that is concerning the conceived or any life for that matter. Its not always easy to know what Gods will is I understand. Through Jesus there is no precedent for deciding that ourselves or denying God His right of ownership over all of us.

Friendly, polite discussion is pretty much exactly what I think God's will involves. A pleasure to discuss with you

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear EnemyPartyII,

I don't understand what sort of a comment you are looking for.

Well you subsequently repeated your answer that you agree life starts at conception in post #436, but my point was to get you to consider the foetus as a life rather than a foetus.
You then next posted

Yes, a foetus is alive, but so what? Just being alive does not mean that the foetus is naturally destined to be born, or that its special, or that its a person, or that it has a soul... have I answered your question yet?

But you are now referring to a foetus, if the foetus is a life abortion is terminating it, whether you think it has a soul or not. (and I note you were unable to answer when.

Chapter and verse where the Bible describes conception please?

In the following post you are given some, you have been shown some of these before. Please cease continually asking for things you immediately reject.

You then in post #447 you again say

Where does scripture say anything remotely like that?

Those of us who see and agree with the scriptures already given several times can’t really do so again if you don’t believe what the scriptures say.

 

[JoabAnias]

Indeed, and props for your Biblical knowledge, however, this does not really address the point that life has NOT always been considered sacred, as the Bible makes clear.

I am not sure how to make it more clear than Jesus creating a new covenant with us thus changing things. It took me many years to grasp this and I don't know if I can just explain it sufficiently for you without your own efforts in prayer and suplication to the Lord. I think it takes much contemplation and study to fully appreciate this and probably not something I can do for you in an internet thread. I think all life is created by God and it is all sacred else He wouldn't have created us in the first place as anything God creates cannot be anything but sacred.

I don't know if you have seen me say it elsewhere, but I am firmly pro-life. I don't think so called "abortions of convenience" are EVER the best option. find the idea of anyone being forced, or pressured into having an abortion that is, in anyway, against their will utterly repugnant. However, that said, I STILL support a woman's right to choose... so I'm not sure how to address your concerns about undue pressure, without eliminating a woman's right to chose. Once again, we are left seeking the pragmatic "best available" solution.

Yes I understand and it gladdens my heart with hope to here you say this. I am in no way advocating supressing anyones free will. I often suffer the consequences of my own free will bad choices in my life and still am. What I am trying to make evident is that these innocents also have a right to life. We in fact have a power over God in this respect as He will allow us to suffer the consequences of our free will if we choose badly. I will grant you at the root of preventing abortion is not trying to remove free will from anyone but in teaching how true freedom is attained through Jesus. I see abortion as an unforunate poor choice snowballed from previous bad choices as perpetuated by secular society. After all pre-marital abstinance is hardly encouraged as a viable alternative by most of society.

Yes, that fine... but if the soul isn't "me" (i.e. the conciousness writing this) why should I care about it?

Because it comes down to a matter of correct formation of conscience which God gave us an intellect for in the first place. He calls us to love Him with all that we are and it takes all that we are which are gifts from Him as our means to eventually be united to Him in paradise.

Really? Jesus was raised in the Talmudic tradition, and, given his unsurpassed knowledge of the Talmud, he was presumeably familiar with the idea that "personhood begins with the first breath"... if so, and if he wanted people to consider personhood as starting earlier, don't you think it odd he didn't mention it?

No I don't find it odd because it wasn't a major concern of the time. I think He did do so though in many inplicit ways of His teachings on life and mercy. And as I have showed you in a couple of instances the apostles expounded on Jesus teaching in matters of faith and morals such as Paul on marriage and divorce and in the Didache.

Friendly, polite discussion is pretty much exactly what I think God's will involves. A pleasure to discuss with you

I agree and a pleasure to dialogue with you as well.
Peace and love sister.

God first in all things. Come Holy Spirit and enlighten our understandings and grant us wisdom.

 

[Archivist]

It has always been the case that morally all life is respected as sacred until Roe vs. Wade 31 yrs ago.

History shows otherwise. The following is from the Wikipedia entry for abortion:

"There were few laws on abortion in the United States at the time of independence, except the common law adopted from England, which held abortion to be legally acceptable if occurring before quickening. James Wilson, a framer of the U.S. Constitution, explained as follows:

“ With consistency, beautiful and undeviating, human life, from its commencement to its close, is protected by the common law. In the contemplation of law, life begins when the infant is first able to stir in the womb. By the law, life is protected not only from immediate destruction, but from every degree of actual violence, and, in some cases, from every degree of danger.”

Various anti-abortion statutes began to appear in the 1820s. In 1821, Connecticut passed a statute targeting apothecaries who sold poisons to women for purposes of abortion, and New York made post-quickening abortions a felony and pre-quickening abortions a misdemeanor eight years later.