You can't be both.

[Diane_Windsor]

Last week you were a Mormon.

and next week she'll be something else.

 

[Archivist]

Are you pregnant and think abortion is your only option?

Objective Factsheets

National Right to Life?

Hardly "Objective."

 

[JoabAnias]

National Right to Life?

Hardly "Objective."

Whats it take to be objective, advocating FOR killing babies?

If you don't think so then dispute any of their facts or keep silent.

 

[Calliso]

Murder can be legal...
Look at Saddam..he legally killed the Kurds, because they were his own laws.

Legal is subjective....and not a basis for fact.


Referring to a baby as a blob is emotional white washing.

Early Church St Chrysostom;
Homily 24

Why sow where the ground makes it its care to destroy the fruit? where there are many efforts at abortion? where there is murder before the birth? for even the harlot thou dost not let continue a mere harlot, but makest her a murderess also. You see how drunkenness leads to whoredom, whoredom to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather to a something even worse than murder. For I have no name to give it, since it does not take off the thing born, but prevent its being born. Why then do you abuse the gift of God, and fight with His laws, and follow after what is a curse as if a blessing, and make the chamber of procreation a chamber for murder, and arm the woman that was given for childbearing unto slaughter? For with a view to drawing more money by being agreeable and an object of longing to her lovers, even this she is not backward to do, so heaping upon your head a great pile of fire. For even if the daring deed be hers, yet the causing of it is yours. Hence too come idolatries, since many, with a view to become acceptable, devise incantations, and libations, and love-potions, and countless other plans. Yet still after such great unseemliness, after slaughters, after idolatries, the thing seems to many to belong to things indifferent, aye, and to many that have wives too. Whence the mingle (φορυτὸς ) of mischief is the greater. For sorceries are applied not to the womb that is prostituted, but to the injured wife, and there are plottings without number, and invocations of devils, and necromancies, and daily wars, and truceless fightings, and home-cherished jealousies. Wherefore also Paul, after saying, "not in chamberings and wantonness," proceeds, "not in strife and envying," as knowing the wars that result therefrom; the upsetting of families, the wrongs done to legitimate children, the other ills unnumbered. That we may then escape from all these, let us put on Christ, and be with Him continually.

So, now we KNOW what Paul meant in scriptures.... as per what the eary Fathers say.
There are MANY more passages from fathers who called abortion murder.

Surprised they had that? Or even contraception, also called murder?

I could pull out a number of ECF's who taught what scriptures meant, and yes, abortion is condemned..
And being the fathers knew what the Apostles meant, it is wise to not ignore this.



Its ok to kill a criminal.
What has a baby done to anyone?
Did it murder as a criminal does?



Please read the early father above... he explained that a wife becomes a harlot, becomes a murderess....
So its doesnt matter if is not due to sleeping around.

BUT on most occassions it is due to sleeping around and or just not married and or not interested in a responsible mature relationship.

That's right, keeping a baby means sacrifice and responsibility. And if a woman is married and does this, it is even worse a sin...for she is told to be fruitful and multiply with her husband.

Ya know...what you do not know.....can kill you. [spiritually eternally]

Wait so they are harlots now? gee and people wonder why some people donlt like prolifers. And I am curious what about the men or man that slept with them? What are they called? or do they get off scot free?

And do you have an creditable sources that suggest most of these women are sleeping around with alot of men? Or do you just asume that?

Having an abortion means sacrifice and responsiblity. Believe it or not an abortion is not a nice easy thing to get. There is risks and pain involved, they can be costly as well. And that is probably just some of the things. Also I am curious what about a woman who decides to just not have kids? *but doesn;t abort just never gets pregnant but is fertile* is she sinning by not procreating? But really your post just reaffirmed to me that I will always be prochoice.

 

[JoabAnias]

Having an abortion means sacrifice and responsiblity. Believe it or not an abortion is not a nice easy thing to get. There is risks and pain involved, they can be costly as well.

Thats true, they cost an arm and a leg, literally.

I am curious what about a woman who decides to just not have kids? *but doesn;t abort just never gets pregnant but is fertile* is she sinning by not procreating?

Don't see how that is denying Gods will at all at face value. Same goes for men too. I am fertile but don't make babies because I am not in a comitted marriage. There is plenty of scripture about fornication too though that says that is a sin. Doesn't matter what gender you are were not going to stone you over it. We just hate to see a little child wasted for someones mistakes. Don't you?

Peace.

 

[Calliso]

Thats true, they cost an arm and a leg, literally.



Don't see how that is denying Gods will at all at face value. Same goes for men too. I am fertile but don't make babies because I am not in a comitted marriage. There is plenty of scripture about fornication too though that says that is a sin. Doesn't matter what gender you are were not going to stone you over it. We just hate to see a little child wasted for someones mistakes. Don't you?

Peace.

But we are not talking about little children here we are talking about embyros and fetus;s.

 

[Trashionista]

Whats it take to be objective, advocating FOR killing babies?

If you don't think so then dispute any of their facts or keep silent.

No. An organization just saying the facts - something like a news channel displaying it on their site.

 

[Trashionista]

Look at Saddam..he legally killed the Kurds, because they were his own laws.

Saddam was a dictator.
That's far different from a fairly elected, liberal government.

Seriously. What's with you people comparing dictators to confused women who get abortions? I don't see the connection.

If you want to stop abortion, you're citizens - support a pro-life candidate.
But don't suggest the pro-choice governments are Hitlers and Husseins. It just makes you look ungrateful.

 

[Archivist]

Whats it take to be objective, advocating FOR killing babies?

If you don't think so then dispute any of their facts or keep silent.

"1 objective belonging to immediate experience of actual things or events; "concrete benefits"; "a concrete example"; "there is no objective evidence of anything of the kind"

2 objective (nonsubjective) undistorted by emotion or personal bias; based on observable phenomena; "an objective appraisal"; "objective evidence"

3 objective emphasizing or expressing things as perceived without distortion of personal feelings or interpretation; "objective art""

The link provided is not "objective" because it is not "perceived without distortion of personal feelings or interpretation."

For the record, I would say the same thing if the link had been to the other extreme--a group such as the National Organization of Women--which also would not provide "objective" information.

 

[Fantine]

I haven't heard anyone dispute the theory that if pro-life politicians felt that the Catholic vote was "in the bag," under pain of mortal sin, it would be difficult to get them to support any other iniatives or priorities that the Church and the USCCB supported.

By making politicians fight for the Catholic vote, rather than bleating our way to the polls like so many sheep, we are getting more support on a wide plethora of issues.

Did your teen get a college scholarship? Thank a voter who didn't bleat his way to the polls....

 

[JoabAnias]

For the record, I would say the same thing if the link had been to the other extreme--a group such as the National Organization of Women--which also would not provide "objective" information.

I guess its just an emotional issue. I looked for a completely objective site but haven't been able to find one. They all seem to advocate in one direction or the other. Perhaps its not possible to be completely objective about the death of a child, or plight of the mother.

I could say that the facts are objective but even then they are disputed so where does one go from there?

I don't think the facts are missed in the medical proceedures but any site that shows them is going to use them to lean towards life because anyone with a pro-choice bias would be defeating their agenda to do so.

Peace.

 

[BAFRIEND]

I haven't heard anyone dispute the theory that if pro-life politicians felt that the Catholic vote was "in the bag," under pain of mortal sin, it would be difficult to get them to support any other iniatives or priorities that the Church and the USCCB supported.

By making politicians fight for the Catholic vote, rather than bleating our way to the polls like so many sheep, we are getting more support on a wide plethora of issues.

Did your teen get a college scholarship? Thank a voter who didn't bleat his way to the polls....

Good your teen got a scholarship and some baby got killed. Nice.

Thank you.

Look at the last election, the Christian Right handed Bush a second term against the odds and the issue was abortion and many politicians got the point. A very promenient feminist stated that Roe v. Wade choice/privacy will not survive another president with a conservative pro-life POV.

So when you vote for a president next election that will not put the judge in there either through POV or indefference, just remember that you may have casted a vote to kill tens of millions of more children.

 

[Calliso]

Good your teen got a scholarship and some baby got killed. Nice.

Thank you.

Look at the last election, the Christian Right handed Bush a second term against the odds and the issue was abortion and many politicians got the point. A very promenient feminist stated that Roe v. Wade choice/privacy will not survive another president with a conservative pro-life POV.

So when you vote for a president next election that will not put the judge in there either through POV or indefference, just remember that you may have casted a vote to kill tens of millions of more children.

You know what though? I bet getting a good education helps prevent a lot of abortions. So she likely has saved many lives!

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Murder can be legal...
Look at Saddam..he legally killed the Kurds, because they were his own laws.

Legal is subjective....and not a basis for fact.

I'll say it again... if it is legal, it is NOT murder... they are mutually exclusive terms. You might as well try to talk about square circles, or black colours.

Referring to a baby as a blob is emotional white washing.

Quite possibly. However no one is refering to babies as "blobs"... a baby is what a foetus becomes after it is born.

So, now we KNOW what Paul meant in scriptures.... as per what the eary Fathers say.
There are MANY more passages from fathers who called abortion murder.

That IS interesting... however, thats THEIR opinion... and I believe mine is just as enlightened and evidence based.

Its ok to kill a criminal.
What has a baby done to anyone?
Did it murder as a criminal does?

No one is talking about killing babies. We're talking about killing an unsentient foetus, which is an entirely different proposition.

 

[JoabAnias]

I'll say it again... if it is legal, it is NOT murder... they are mutually exclusive terms. You might as well try to talk about square circles, or black colours.

Killing is murder when its immoral. Regardless of how one sees secular authorities redefining it. Its no more relative than a Jihad, Ethnic cleansing or Religious persecution. Such reasoning would make the Romans killing Christians in the Circus Maximus or either of the afore mentioned examples acceptable and not murder which they clearly are. I understand this is necessary for many to rationalize their belief system. However what would you think God would want given the unfortunate circumstance where a woman finds herself faced with this choice?


Peace.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Killing is murder when its immoral. Regardless of how one sees secular authorities redefining it. Its no more relative than a Jihad, Ethnic cleansing or Religious persecution. Such reasoning would make the Romans killing Christians in the Circus Maximus or either of the afore mentioned examples acceptable and not murder which they clearly are. I understand this is necessary for many to rationalize their belief system. However what would you think God would want given the unfortunate circumstance where a woman finds herself faced with this choice?


Peace.

You can kill someone legally and it be immoral, just as you can kill someone morally and still have it classed as murder.

Seriously, redifining words to suit your own purposes makes your argument look weak.

Legal killing is the opposite of murder, and never the twain shall meet. You can argue that abortion is immoral all you like, but until such time as it is made illegal, it will never be, and cannot be, murder.

 

[JoabAnias]

You can kill someone legally and it be immoral, just as you can kill someone morally and still have it classed as murder.

Seriously, redifining words to suit your own purposes makes your argument look weak.

Legal killing is the opposite of murder, and never the twain shall meet. You can argue that abortion is immoral all you like, but until such time as it is made illegal, it will never be, and cannot be, murder.

Yes I hear what your saying. My point is its wrong. Thus there is the praradox in our society.

I suppose it depends on who or where you take your meaning of morality from.

Peace.

 

[Avatar]

You can kill someone legally and it be immoral, just as you can kill someone morally and still have it classed as murder.

Seriously, redifining words to suit your own purposes makes your argument look weak.

Legal killing is the opposite of murder, and never the twain shall meet. You can argue that abortion is immoral all you like, but until such time as it is made illegal, it will never be, and cannot be, murder.

Arguing this point actually makes YOUR argument look weak. Particularly when you spend so much time on it. It's semantics as well as you being disingenous. You know full well that most Christians call an immoral killing murder. That you resort to Webster's rather than addressing the moral argument is pathetic (and pedantic).

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Yes I hear what your saying. My point is its wrong. Thus there is the praradox in our society.

I suppose it depends on who or where you take your meaning of morality from.

Peace.

You are certainly free to make the argument it is wrong, and I will listen to you.

Just don't misuse words, thats wrong too

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Arguing this point actually makes YOUR argument look weak. Particularly when you spend so much time on it. It's semantics as well as you being disingenous. You know full well that most Christians call an immoral killing murder. That you resort to Webster's rather than addressing the moral argument is pathetic (and pedantic).

I agree I'm pedantic.

But misusing words doesn't help anyone. If you want to argue against abortion, please, be my guest. If you want to argue for making it illegal, be my guest. If you want to argue that its immoral, please, fill your boots to your hearts content.

Just don't use words inappropriately, and ESPECIALLY don't try to base an emotional argument on misused words.