"You are Peter, and upon this rock..."

[Root of Jesse]

Same thing. Unless Jesus is a liar, Holy Communion is, in fact, His body and blood. That Rome went overboard and declared, against reality, that it isn't also at the same time bread and wine is another matter.

That's not what "Rome" declared. They declared that his body and blood are masked by the appearance of bread and wine. Big difference.

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

That's not what "Rome" declared. They declared that his body and blood are masked by the appearance of bread and wine. Big difference.

Not really. Either it is both bread and wine AND body and blood, or it is no longer bread and wine, but only appears to be.

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

"The idea was to symbolize His body as bread in order to fulfill Jeremiah's prophecy about the cross (wood).

1 Cor. 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular

As such, we aren't literally bread, right?"

I don't really get what you're trying to say with the Isaiah-reference. Would you mind spelling it out?
Also: No, we're not. Neither is the Communion Bread and Wine UNTIL the Pastor/Priest has sanctified it like Jesus did. After that, it is.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Not really. Either it is both bread and wine AND body and blood, or it is no longer bread and wine, but only appears to be.

We don't believe either/or. We believe both/and. It's the body and blood under the appearance of bread and wine.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

I don't really get what you're trying to say with the Isaiah-reference. Would you mind spelling it out?
Also: No, we're not. Neither is the Communion Bread and Wine UNTIL the Pastor/Priest has sanctified it like Jesus did. After that, it is.

You quoted me saying this although I think that it was somebody else.

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

You quoted me saying this although I think that it was somebody else.

Yes I did. My bad! I've changed it now - though I have no idea what happened

We don't believe either/or. We believe both/and. It's the body and blood under the appearance of bread and wine.

But it IS no longer bread and wine - it is ONLY Body and Blood, according to you..right?

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Yes I did. My bad! I've changed it now - though I have no idea what happened

Thank you!

 

[Root of Jesse]

But it IS no longer bread and wine - it is ONLY Body and Blood, according to you..right?

It is the body and blood of Christ under the appearance of bread and wine. According to the Church.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Sincere question here..

Isn't it bread and wine UNTIL the man says a prayer? Isn't that when it supposedly becomes the flesh and blood of Christ?

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

It is the body and blood of Christ under the appearance of bread and wine. According to the Church.

So what I said was correct: According to the RCC, Communion is no longer bread and wine, it only appears to be so.

 

[Root of Jesse]

So what I said was correct: According to the RCC, Communion is no longer bread and wine, it only appears to be so.

Do you understand the concept of accidents? OR do you understand that Jesus, while being divine, didn't walk the earth appearing divine. He appeared human. Even his own disciples, while acknowledging, when asked, that he was divine, kept forgetting.

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Do you understand the concept of accidents? OR do you understand that Jesus, while being divine, didn't walk the earth appearing divine. He appeared human. Even his own disciples, while acknowledging, when asked, that he was divine, kept forgetting.

Do you understand the concept of logic?
Either it is both bread and wine, and body and blood, OR it is only bread and wine yet APPEARS to be body and blood...exactly like I said.

Jesus is man, and divine at the same time. Whereas if we were to follow the RCCs apparent logic with Communion, He only APPEARED to be man - a heresy which even the RCC has rejected.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Do you understand the concept of logic?
Either it is both bread and wine, and body and blood, OR it is only bread and wine yet APPEARS to be body and blood...exactly like I said.

Religious beliefs are not always logical to the human mind. I reject your logic in this case. There have been cases where the host, after consecration, showed itself as heart muscle and blood. So it is body and blood of Christ but appears to be bread and wine.

Jesus is man, and divine at the same time. Whereas if we were to follow the RCCs apparent logic with Communion, He only APPEARED to be man - a heresy which even the RCC has rejected.

Jesus didn't appear to be divine, yet he was (and is).

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Religious beliefs are not always logical to the human mind. I reject your logic in this case. There have been cases where the host, after consecration, showed itself as heart muscle and blood. So it is body and blood of Christ but appears to be bread and wine.

....which differs from what I'm saying how?
Also: Cool story with the heart muscle and blood-thing. What, seen a bit too much GoT lately?

Jesus didn't appear to be divine, yet he was (and is).

Yes. Divine, and man. Why do you suspect we disagree here?

 

[Root of Jesse]

....which differs from what I'm saying how?
Also: Cool story with the heart muscle and blood-thing. What, seen a bit too much GoT lately?

Because it's not bread and wine, it appears to be. It's not a story, it's documented. What's GoT?

Yes. Divine, and man. Why do you suspect we disagree here?

Again, missing the point. He did not appear to be anything but a man, yet he was, and is, God. The bread and wine, likewise, appear to be bread and wine, and yet they're not, after the consecration.

 

[Albion]

So what I said was correct: According to the RCC, Communion is no longer bread and wine, it only appears to be so.

That much I get. But as often as I've read the following, I can't make out what you're saying (or else what the reason for saying it is):

Jesus is man, and divine at the same time. Whereas if we were to follow the RCCs apparent logic with Communion, He only APPEARED to be man - a heresy which even the RCC has rejected.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
Either it is both bread and wine, and body and blood, OR it is only bread and wine yet APPEARS to be body and blood...exactly like I said.

Jesus is man, and divine at the same time. Whereas if we were to follow the RCCs apparent logic with Communion, He only APPEARED to be man - a heresy which even the RCC has rejected.

I will not make an attempt to deal with the claims your post makes about logic other than to say that they are in error. But I will present what the Catholic Church says about the real presence of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. (click this link for the source of the following statements)

What is the Eucharist?
The Eucharist is the very sacrifice of the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus which he instituted to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until his return in glory. Thus he entrusted to his Church this memorial of his death and Resurrection. It is a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a paschal banquet, in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.

What are the essential and necessary elements for celebrating the Eucharist?
The essential elements are wheat bread and grape wine.

In what way is the Eucharist a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ?
The Eucharist is a memorial in the sense that it makes present and actual the sacrifice which Christ offered to the Father on the cross, once and for all on behalf of mankind. The sacrificial character of the Holy Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution, “This is my Body which is given for you” and “This cup is the New Covenant in my Blood that will be shed for you” (Luke 22:19-20). The sacrifice of the cross and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one and the same sacrifice. The priest and the victim are the same; only the manner of offering is different: in a bloody manner on the cross, in an unbloody manner in the Eucharist.

In what way does the Church participate in the eucharistic sacrifice?
In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, their suffering, their prayers, their work, are united to those of Christ. In as much as it is a sacrifice, the Eucharist is likewise offered for all the faithful, living and dead, in reparation for the sins of all and to obtain spiritual and temporal benefits from God. The Church in heaven is also united to the offering of Christ.

How is Christ present in the Eucharist?
Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist in a unique and incomparable way. He is present in a true, real and substantial way, with his Body and his Blood, with his Soul and his Divinity. In the Eucharist, therefore, there is present in a sacramental way, that is, under the Eucharistic species of bread and wine, Christ whole and entire, God and Man.

What is the meaning of transubstantiation?
Transubstantiation means the change of the whole substance of bread into the substance of the Body of Christ and of the whole substance of wine into the substance of his Blood. This change is brought about in the eucharistic prayer through the efficacy of the word of Christ and by the action of the Holy Spirit. However, the outward characteristics of bread and wine, that is the “eucharistic species”, remain unaltered.

Does the breaking of the bread divide Christ?
The breaking of the bread does not divide Christ. He is present whole and entire in each of the eucharistic species and in each of their parts.​

How long does the presence of Christ last in the Eucharist?
The presence of Christ continues in the Eucharist as long as the eucharistic species subsist.
​

 

[Rick Otto]

But there is no indication whatsoever that He was speaking metaphorically. The only way one arrives at the conclusion, is if that's what one WANTS to do.

It is patently false to say there is no indication.
Ignorance or deceit... maybe self deceit, but saying "a is b" (bread is flesh) is the very definition of metaphor.
But I realise that simple fact threatens the romance of mystery and miracle, and that intellectual honesty is often religious suicide.

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Ah yes, it's "documented". Just as it's "documented" that I threw a baseball 300 kilometers after which it turned into an egg that I made an omelet with, and I can totally prove it because I paid someone to corroborate it!

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Because it's not bread and wine, it appears to be. It's not a story, it's documented. What's GoT?

And so - you validate what I have said all along.
GoT = Game of Thrones. In an episode, one of the characters eats the heart of a horse.

It is patently false to say there is no indication.

No. It's true.

Ignorance or deceit... maybe self deceit, but saying "a is b" (bread is flesh) is the very definition of metaphor.

No. Context, context, context.

But I realise that simple fact threatens the romance of mystery and miracle, and that intellectual honesty is often religious suicide.

Intellectual honesty.....lol.....that's a fancy way of saying: "I want God to conform to MY way of thinking, gosh darn it all!".
And a completely false application of the words "intellectual honesty".
If evangelicals/baptists/etc were intellectually honest, they would cease to be evangelicals/baptists/etc.