"You are Peter, and upon this rock..."

[MoreCoffee]

Now don't forget that the men in your assembly can't be wrong, they can turn bread into God's flesh, and wine into His blood.

Don't sell yourself short here.

You don't have any arguments, just ridicule. We'll know them by their fruits.

FireDragon76 is right. There's not even a trace of an argument in that sarcastic post.

 

[FireDragon76]

http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/47/47-1/47-1-pp089-120_JETS.pdf

This article helped me understand how Luther and Calvin understood continuity with the Church. Basically, they see the doctrine of sola fide upholding the doctrine of grace, which they see in Augustine, therefore they acknowledge Augustine's faith as the same as theirs, even if it is not using the same formula (Augustine taught that God's love sends grace which transforms the believer by the Holy Spirit to love the Law. So his doctrine was more of a justification by love through grace).

Luther himself never said the doctrine of sola fide is the doctrine by which the Church stands or falls. That was Lutheran scholasticism. Luther stressed the doctrine of grace against perceived pelagianism.

It contrasts this with R.C. Sproul's denial that churches that do not have a doctrine of justification Sola Fide are not churches, and demonstrates that Luther and Calvin did not believe this.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

FireDragon76 is right. There's not even a trace of an argument in that sarcastic post.

And I thought that your assembly actually does turn bread into flesh and wine into blood. Or God does and you just believe it without any evidence at all.

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

And I thought that your assembly actually does turn bread into flesh and wine into blood. Or God does and you just believe it without any evidence at all.

So, you're calling Jesus Christ a liar? After all, He is the One who said: "This is my body ... this is my blood".

 

[Rick Otto]

So, you're calling Jesus Christ a liar? After all, He is the One who said: "This is my body ... this is my blood".

Please remain calm.
I think he is just calling Eucharistic Literalists, mistaken.

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Please remain calm.
I think he is just calling Eucharistic Literalists, mistaken.

Same thing. Unless Jesus is a liar, Holy Communion is, in fact, His body and blood. That Rome went overboard and declared, against reality, that it isn't also at the same time bread and wine is another matter.

 

[Rick Otto]

Same thing. Unless Jesus is a liar, Holy Communion is, in fact, His body and blood. That Rome went overboard and declared, against reality, that it isn't also at the same time bread and wine is another matter.

Not the same thing.
Using metaphor does not make one a liar.
Not understanding when metaphor is being used, and what it is, is a problem.

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Not the same thing.
Using metaphor does not make one a liar.
Not understanding when metaphor is being used, and what it is, is a problem.

But there is no indication whatsoever that He was speaking metaphorically. The only way one arrives at the conclusion, is if that's what one WANTS to do.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

So, you're calling Jesus Christ a liar? After all, He is the One who said: "This is my body ... this is my blood".

He also said that He the light of the world.. do you think that He is a light bulb? How about a Lamb, is Jesus a little lamb as in an animal? Of course not, although there can be no question about Him being the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world.

The church of God is the future bride of our Lord Jesus Christ.. she loves to come together and sit with Him at His table and eat with Him.. the bride doesn't eat her husband, she eats with her husband to be..

Unless youcan find a scriptural precedent where women eat their husbands..

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

snip

Still waiting for someone to provide me with the slightest evidence for Jesus actually meaning "Oh, btw, guys, I totally didn't mean what I just said. It's just, you know, a kinda symbol or whatever".

 

[MoreCoffee]

Still waiting for someone to provide me with the slightest evidence for Jesus actually meaning "Oh, btw, guys, I totally didn't mean what I just said. It's just, you know, a kinda symbol or whatever".

I wonder if the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (JW bible) would make it sound more like a symbol?

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

I wonder if the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (JW bible) would make it sound more like a symbol?

Probably.
Also, what is a "CF Ambassador"?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Probably.
Also, what is a "CF Ambassador"?

I think it means I am extra cool and nice

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Still waiting for someone to provide me with the slightest evidence for Jesus actually meaning "Oh, btw, guys, I totally didn't mean what I just said. It's just, you know, a kinda symbol or whatever".

I'm still wondering where in the world you folks believe that a guy is saying some prayer which then turns a little piece of bread into the Almighty.

You might want to think a little more highly of Him than to consider Him a piece of bread that you pass through your body.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm still wondering where in the world you folks believe that a guy is saying some prayer which then turns a little piece of bread into the Almighty.

You might want to think a little more highly of Him than to consider Him a piece of bread that you pass through your body.

God is omnipresent.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

God is omnipresent.

So that's reason to think so lowly of Him and believe that some guy can turn a piece of bread into Him?

Aim a little higher there brother.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So that's reason to think so lowly of Him and believe that some guy can turn a piece of bread into Him?

Aim a little higher there brother.

Your posts are close to blasphemous but if that is how you intend to write what can be done but to ignore the blasphemy?

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Your posts are close to blasphemous but if that is how you intend to write what can be done but to ignore the blasphemy?

Telling you to aim higher with respect to believing who the Almighty is... is blasphemous?

Would you feel better if I told you to aim lower?

 

[Standing Up]

Still waiting for someone to provide me with the slightest evidence for Jesus actually meaning "Oh, btw, guys, I totally didn't mean what I just said. It's just, you know, a kinda symbol or whatever".

Two things.

Jeremiah 11:19 (Septuagint) But I as an innocent lamb led to the slaughter, knew not: against me they devised an evil device, saying, Come and let us put wood into his bread, and let us utterly destroy him from off the land of the living, and let his name not be remembered any more.

The idea was to symbolize His body as bread in order to fulfill Jeremiah's prophecy about the cross (wood).

1 Cor. 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular

As such, we aren't literally bread, right?

 

[stevenfrancis]

There are two extant churches which meet 3 of the 4 marks of the Church. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. They will reunite. It is theologically necessary. Then both, (by now being one), will fulfill the 4 marks of the Church by being One, Holy, catholic, and Apostolic. I believe this will happen before the parousia. I can understand why there are EO's, and I can understand why there are Catholics.
Since we DID have the reformation, I understand intellectually, (but not in the heart), why we might still have protestant denominations, (up to a point), because of cultures and generations who have grown up in protestantism. I myself fall into that category.
I see many discussions, arguments, and debates. The stances all remain the same. There seem to be 3 categories of stances. Catholic Christian, Non-Catholic Christian, and Non Christian groups who believe themselves to be Christian under their groups self created definition.
I'm afraid I've lost sight of what it is that we are doing. One thing seems to ring true. All of us have given far too much weight over the past several centuries of Christianity to personal opinion. It's hard enough for folks to understand the existence of one Pope, let alone tens of thousands. Peter and his successors were always supposed to simply supply the role of Peter among the Apostles. That is, to settle controversies among the other Apostles, and to lead, when there was a conference of Bishops. To declare dogma when necessary to combat some heresy or another. He is not royalty. He is a bishop. The bishop of Rome. The only difference is that Christ built His Church upon him, gave him the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, and the power to forgive sin. Peter organized the Church after Pentacost. Jesus told him to "feed my sheep", "feed my lambs". When the other Apostles discussed organizational matters; or when at the first council they needed a firm decision on what elements of the law to lay on the Gentiles, etc., it was he they turned to. It doesn't make him superhuman. It doesn't mean he has "more" of the Holy Ghost than other bishops. He is just the arbiter of debate, by virtue of position. It was a mistake during the renaissance to ascribe to the Pope, some of the powers which belong to the state. Those rightly went away over time. They aren't coming back. Things happen. Bad people floated in and out of the office, but not a single one of them changed the doctrines of the Church. They were only bad or wrong for that matter up against the doctrines of the Church. They weren't being good examples of the see of Peter. Okay...Got it. But now, still, in 2015 when unity of the Church would make every difference in the world, and all of us know it was Jesus prayer for us to be one, and that the world would know us by how we love one another, what are we doing? Isn't maybe time to subjugate our personal opinions and egos to the way that Jesus, the founder upon whom we all agree, wanted us to be set up until He returns? In fact promised that His Church would pierce the very gates of Hell itself?
I will take my answer off the air, so to speak. These are rhetorical questions actually. Stuff I've been thinking about. I am certainly nothing and no-one special, so I'm sure that all of you think about this stuff also. Perhaps from a completely different perspective. But I pray that the thoughts are at least there. The wondering. The hoping that our discussions may be meaningful to our union as followers of the Way. As the members of the mystical body of Christ, and why we aren't all understanding at least that much in the same way. I pray that we may all come to the same conclusion, and not be frightened or offended by the see of St. Peter, which only does what it was asked to do 2,000 years ago by our blessed Lord.