Yin and Yang? Not in My Bible!

[Akita Suggagaki]

Thanks for sharing with me!

So, if the bible isn't meant to be read literally as a rulebook, of sorts, for living in accordance to His will and is intended more so, on the whole and in it's entirety, to "speak to the heart" through a mix of metaphor and fictional accounts interspersed with literal accounts - how do you differentiate between the two?

Or do you not even try and simply accept whatever it is that the Church has to say on any given bible passage or scriptural question?

If this is the case, have you ever found yourself disagreeing with the Church?

What are your thoughts on the Catholic concept of 'church invisible' as opposed to 'church visible'?


*Just a quick point of contention:
Jesus' main commandment, as definitively stated in scripture, isn't to love one another

I wish it were and would be far more open to Him if it were, but...
when asked what the greatest commandment is:

Jesus explicitly replied
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind"
This, Jesus iterated, is the FIRST AND GREATEST commandment

To love neighbor {i.e. one another}
is second

It certainly is a challenge to discern literal from fictional so I don't let it bother me. If what the Church says is reasonable I go with it. If not I let it slide. I certainly not am going to go out and try to convince anyone. I am more pragmatic, What difference does something make in my life.

Yes, I think Church invisible is more along the lines of what Jesus had in mind.

Greatest commandment was, of course, in the context of Jewish Shema. I think the preaching of Jesus and his instructions to disciples provided a needed balance. To think we can love God without loving others is a big mistake. We love God through others. Or maybe some just love the concept of God. I personally seek to engage, develop and deepen a relationship with the great mystery of our being, the ground of our existence as some have said. But it is not just an it, an impersonal concept or force. I choose to believe in a person. Exactly who that divine person is continues to be an unfolding mystery for me. And i am glad of it. If I could have God figured our with my punt mind I would be disappointed.

 

[Treeplanter]

It certainly is a challenge to discern literal from fictional so I don't let it bother me. If what the Church says is reasonable I go with it. If not I let it slide. I certainly not am going to go out and try to convince anyone. I am more pragmatic, What difference does something make in my life.

Yes, I think Church invisible is more along the lines of what Jesus had in mind.

Greatest commandment was, of course, in the context of Jewish Shema. I think the preaching of Jesus and his instructions to disciples provided a needed balance. To think we can love God without loving others is a big mistake. We love God through others. Or maybe some just love the concept of God. I personally seek to engage, develop and deepen a relationship with the great mystery of our being, the ground of our existence as some have said. But it is not just an it, an impersonal concept or force. I choose to believe in a person. exactly who that divine person is continues to be an unfolding mystery for me.

'Church Invisible' as I understand it, allows for the possibility of salvation without formal recognition of Jesus Christ if and when a person unconsciously lives his/her life in accordance to the will of Jesus Christ

A circumvention of Sola Fide

In short, as long as you are a good person then you can go to Heaven without ever having "come" to Jesus Christ

Are you on board with this?

 

[Carl Emerson]

No
I was brought up, nominally, as a Catholic
Never paid much mind to religion/God
Read the bible for the 1st time when I was 15-16 yrs old and was horrified by what I encountered

Was there a life event that led you to Christ?

Here is a summary...

Firstly there was always 'God awareness' in my life - from about the age of 4 seeing His fingerprint in creation.

Then at about 8 Jesus appears to me face to face - day time open eye - 'vision' He identifies He is Jesus and that nothing in this life I do will not be seen by Him.

Then at 13 I knew I needed to be born again but it was so personal I didn't want to do it 'publicly' so although I was at a Christian camp, I took off on my own - found a lonely spot - lay down prostrate and said 'I know I have always been yours, but there comes a time when I must give you my all and invite you to come into my life and take control, sorry for my sinful ways, forgive and fill me with yourself Jesus. As I was praying I heard footsteps coming towards me, but as I looked up there was no one there - but He has been with me ever since.

Being born again was the start of a difficult journey - back in the 60's folks went to church but there was little talk about personal encounters - one kept such matters to ones self. Godly counsel was rare. It was a formidable and largely lonely journey.

However at 17 I was pretty much a recluse until friends organised for me to go to a dance where I met my first wife. School had written me off and I was expelled for refusing to sit the national exam for the third time - my report said 'we know that He is good for something but we don't know what' So when I found a girl willing to speak to me, having such an inferiority complex, It was all on... The catch was that she didn't share my faith but back then the sum total of advice available was my dad saying 'are you sure you are doing the right thing?'

So seven years of incompatibility and eventually she took up with my best friend.

In the meantime my life became a shipwreck - drugs - anything to 'find myself' and ultimately incarcerated and administered ECT, reduced to vegetable state.

But - folks payed...

Something deep inside told me to return to my Christian roots.

So I was miraculously released from the mental hospital and took off up country to 'find God' again.

So on the wharf at Collingwood sitting alone looking at the ocean He shows up. It was like being picked up by the scruff of the neck and being told last chance - these are the rails - stay on them. Live your life according to the Bible...

So that was the beginning of a seven year journey back to Jesus and Wholeness - fellowship, prayer. healing, deliverance, Love.

The is you read my testimony thread here...
Jesus's Ministry

You will see the extent to which He has restored me...

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

'Church Invisible' as I understand it, allows for the possibility of salvation without formal recognition of Jesus Christ if and when a person unconsciously lives his/her life in accordance to the will of Jesus Christ

A circumvention of Sola Fide

In short, as long as you are a good person then you can go to Heaven without ever having "come" to Jesus Christ

Are you on board with this?

Yes, all aboard. I have no desire to put restrictions on God even though one could perhaps pick out scripture verses that say otherwise. That is not what scripture is for.

 

[Treeplanter]

Here is a summary...

Firstly there was always 'God awareness' in my life - from about the age of 4 seeing His fingerprint in creation.

Then at about 8 Jesus appears to me face to face - day time open eye - 'vision' He identifies He is Jesus and that nothing in this life I do will not be seen by Him.

Then at 13 I knew I needed to be born again but it was so personal I didn't want to do it 'publicly' so although I was at a Christian camp, I took off on my own - found a lonely spot - lay down prostrate and said 'I know I have always been yours, but there comes a time when I must give you my all and invite you to come into my life and take control, sorry for my sinful ways, forgive and fill me with yourself Jesus. As I was praying I heard footsteps coming towards me, but as I looked up there was no one there - but He has been with me ever since.

Being born again was the start of a difficult journey - back in the 60's folks went to church but there was little talk about personal encounters - one kept such matters to ones self. Godly counsel was rare. It was a formidable and largely lonely journey.

However at 17 I was pretty much a recluse until friends organised for me to go to a dance where I met my first wife. School had written me off and I was expelled for refusing to sit the national exam for the third time - my report said 'we know that He is good for something but we don't know what' So when I found a girl willing to speak to me, having such an inferiority complex, It was all on... The catch was that she didn't share my faith but back then the sum total of advice available was my dad saying 'are you sure you are doing the right thing?'

So seven years of incompatibility and eventually she took up with my best friend.

In the meantime my life became a shipwreck - drugs - anything to 'find myself' and ultimately incarcerated and administered ECT, reduced to vegetable state.

But - folks payed...

Something deep inside told me to return to my Christian roots.

So I was miraculously released from the mental hospital and took off up country to 'find God' again.

So on the wharf at Collingwood sitting alone looking at the ocean He shows up. It was like being picked up by the scruff of the neck and being told last chance - these are the rails - stay on them. Live your life according to the Bible...

So that was the beginning of a seven year journey back to Jesus and Wholeness - fellowship, prayer. healing, deliverance, Love.

The is you read my testimony thread here...
Jesus's Ministry

You will see the extent to which He has restored me...

Thank you for sharing this!
I read your testimony, too
Very interesting...

Let me first say that I'm sincerely glad that you've found comfort and peace in your life

You'll have to pardon me my skepticism, but a "daytime, open eye, face to face" encounter with Jesus, at the age of 8, is something that I have a very hard time believing

Being that this seems to be the pivotal event leading, ultimately, to where you are today - I'd be interested in hearing more details if you are willing to share further

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

My story is not nearly as powerful as Carl's.

Baptized Catholic at 1 month old. Went to Catholic school, altar boy, yadda, yadda.
I went to confession once after college because I had missed Mass and we all know what that means. But the priest told me to pray for a love of the Mass. That sounded crazy but I at there in the pew and realized that not only did i not love the Mass. i did not love God. So i said that to God and I added, "How can I love you if i don't know you. Please show me who you are." Nothing big happened. I just began to see everything in life a little differently and I guess I can say my heart began to open and be lifted. Let's see...that was 44 years ago.

 

[Treeplanter]

Yes, all aboard. I have no desire to put restrictions on God even though one could perhaps pick out scripture verses that say otherwise. That is not what scripture is for.

I'm glad to hear that

One of my biggest beefs with Christianity has always been the idea of good people being banished to Hell for the so-called "crime" of not recognizing Jesus Christ prior to death

 

[Treeplanter]

My story is not nearly as powerful as Carl's.

Baptized Catholic at 1 month old. Went to Catholic school, altar boy, yadda, yadda.
I went to confession once after college because I had missed Mass and we all know what that means. But the priest told me to pray for a love of the Mass. That sounded crazy but I at there in the pew and realized that not only did i not love the Mass. i did not love God. So i said that to God and I added, "How can I love you if i don't know you. Please show me who you are." Nothing big happened. I just began to see everything in life a little differently and I guess I can say my heart began to open and be lifted. Let's see...that was 44 years ago.

I actually like what that priest told you
Sounds like he was a good one

 

[Mark Quayle]

To an extent, I agree, but I think that many of our deep-seated standards have their origin in God. There is of course corruption since we have fallen away. Consider the ubiquity of monogamous marriage, or the universality of 'do no harm'.

But what I said denies none of that. We of course have morality, even the morality of social good, and conscience, (and it's a good thing, too!), and yes that is of God. But that is not in a void --it is of an objective law, whether we see it that way or not.

We are nothing without God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes...

I was not a 'good boy'...

I remember throwing a dart into my sisters leg...

I vividly recall the incident to this day and exactly where I was standing in the house.

I was alone and suddenly Jesus appeared about 10 feet away suspended in mid air, white robe, shining in His glory, face like in religious art.
There was immediately 'spirit' to 'spirit' communication between is His voice was not audible but I could hear it deep inside me.

First He said who He was, then he simply said that there was nothing I would do in this life that He would not see.

Message received - then he was gone...

Just to say that such appearances are more common than one might think but most folks keep them to themselves for fear of being thought a heretic.

At 75 I don't care any more about reputation - just say it as it is.

My mum who was a wonderful saint, had Jesus appear to her at about 21 and He said that if she married my dad it would be hard, but the choice was hers.

She had a gift - she would see a vision for half a day about the future of the local church, she would ring the pastor who would come immediately and ask questions about what she was seeing and get detail and answers to his questions.

I spoke at her funeral, she died at 98, I couldn't believe the number that were there - she touched many lives.

With these events in the background I would ask others if they had similar experiences. Indeed some folks had but would never talk about it.

These were the days when God was moving in spectacular ways - my brother rang my mum and simply said get round here quick (he lived a block away)
She found him on the kitchen floor on his knees under deep repentance. He was born again, baptised, along with his son.

 

[Treeplanter]

But what I said denies none of that. We of course have morality, even the morality of social good, and conscience, (and it's a good thing, too!), and yes that is of God. But that is not in a void --it is of an objective law, whether we see it that way or not.

We are nothing without God.

What do you mean by objective?

I say that all morality is subjective

I define subjective as that which is filtered through personal thoughts and feelings
And objective, naturally, is that which is NOT filtered through personal thoughts and feelings

And being that a differentiation of right from wrong {i.e. morality} is ALWAYS filtered through personal thoughts and feelings - be it those of man or those of God - morality is always subjective!

A true objective morality {i.e. one NOT filtered through personal thoughts and feelings} would entail a morality that exists outside of God - as if there were some kind of repository of differentiation between right and wrong, floating somewhere out in space - one that even God, Himself, must recognize

Surely, you don't mean to suggest that morality exists independently of God, right?

What, then, do you mean by an objective morality vs a subjective one?

 

[Treeplanter]

Yes...

I was not a 'good boy'...

I remember throwing a dart into my sisters leg...

I vividly recall the incident to this day and exactly where I was standing in the house.

I was alone and suddenly Jesus appeared about 10 feet away suspended in mid air, white robe, shining in His glory, face like in religious art.
There was immediately 'spirit' to 'spirit' communication between is His voice was not audible but I could hear it deep inside me.

First He said who He was, then he simply said that there was nothing I would do in this life that He would not see.

Message received - then he was gone...

Just to say that such appearances are more common than one might think but most folks keep them to themselves for fear of being thought a heretic.

At 75 I don't care any more about reputation - just say it as it is.

My mum who was a wonderful saint, had Jesus appear to her at about 21 and He said that if she married my dad it would be hard, but the choice was hers.

She had a gift - she would see a vision for half a day about the future of the local church, she would ring the pastor who would come immediately and ask questions about what she was seeing and get detail and answers to his questions.

I spoke at her funeral, she died at 98, I couldn't believe the number that were there - she touched many lives.

With these events in the background I would ask others if they had similar experiences. Indeed some folks had but would never talk about it.

These were the days when God was moving in spectacular ways - my brother rang my mum and simply said get round here quick (he lived a block away)
She found him on the kitchen floor on his knees under deep repentance. He was born again, baptised, along with his son.

Is it possible that the 'trauma' of tossing a dart into your sister's leg - coupled with the active imagination and/or guilt of a naughty 8 yr old boy - might have led you to see and hear something that wasn't actually there?


Additionally, you do realize, of course, that the historical Jesus almost certainly looked nothing like the light complected, fine haired figure depicted in {largely European} religious art

 

[Mark Quayle]

But He does care. that's the whole point. Maybe not to the degree you'd like Him to. Think about this:

What can man really glory in? How much of the entirety of all knowable things everywhere can one individual person learn and know? What about collectively? What can we collectively achieve with our collective knowledge? What can we boast about individually or collectively that would count as any level of glory?

Now, have you ever considered God's actual glory? The Bible describes it as a physically present and tangible thing, when God so chooses.

What would you do if faced with God's glory? We fall all over ourselves sometimes when in audience with celebrities. But they are just men. The most beautiful woman in the world that could make every man's heart skip a beat would only just be a woman. But God? Maker of all things? What would you do? Say? How would you conduct yourself?

Sometimes we talk a big game until we're faced with whoever it is we're mouthing off about.

I dare you to pray. Ask God to show up. See if He does. And if He does, how would you respond to His glory then? Would He be worth your praise, and adoration, and worship? Or would you find something to hold Him to account for?

Before you pray, read the Bible and see what it really says about God's glory. And not just from that one psalm you keep quoting. Read and see how people reacted, what they did and said, and how. Then make your prayer, if you dare.

I am not challenging you, or trying to be a bully here. I am just asking you to take a daring step of faith.

God bless you, Treeplanter. Let me know how it goes.

Thank you, Song. I like this. Something never sits right in me when people try to defend God, and I find myself doing it all the time. He doesn't need our excuses and reasons. He doesn't ask us to defend him, though we should have a reason for the faith that is in us. God is his own reason, his own being, needing nothing. He is the default --we are the odd addition to what is, like a useless appendage.

Some non-believers and even one atheist I have spoken with acknowledge that IF first cause exists, he is by definition omnipotent, and with intent (not mere mechanical fact, but a living being), and as careful philosophy shows, many more logically derived corollary attributes: (divine simplicity, aseity, eternity, goodness, graciousness, holiness, immanence, immutability etc.)

In the end this First Cause matches the God of the Bible perfectly (that is, from the philosophical POV he is the same being, though from the POV of the Bible he is possessing of other attributes that have not been philosophically derived as of yet). He is OBVIOUSLY worthy of all praise and adoration, REGARDLESS of whether we understand him or like him or not.

Maybe the hardest thing to get through the mind of common man is the fact that God is OWNER of all things, and has the absolute right to do as he planned --it is no injustice-- it is the reason he created in the first place.

But what sits oddly ironic in my mind is the fact that the atheist who wants to judge God's morality, in philosophy admits to an eventual end to all things of moral effect, which logically means that in the end nothing matters. With no moral anchor but themselves, this mere worm of a being (mankind) boasts superiority to First Cause who made him. He assumes this short silly unimportant life he has and is gone, is where substance resides, and not on God himself, eternal, who is going to take us with HIM! He thinks Ecclesiastes backs him up on this!

 

[Mark Quayle]

And being that a differentiation of right from wrong {i.e. morality} is ALWAYS filtered through personal thoughts and feelings - be it those of man or those of God - morality is always subjective!

If morality is only filtered through thoughts and feelings, it is no longer morality, but conscience perhaps, or conceptually a reference point. Morality itself came from somewhere besides what we call natural.

A true objective morality {i.e. one NOT filtered through personal thoughts and feelings} would entail a morality that exists outside of God - as if there were some kind of repository of differentiation between right and wrong, floating somewhere out in space - one that even God, Himself, must recognize

Surely, you don't mean to suggest that morality exists independently of God, right?

What, then, do you mean by an objective morality vs a subjective one?

You are the one suggesting that morality exists independently of God, claiming it is subjective.

Here you are supposing God to be like us --one who must reason concerning whether a thing to do is moral?? It is not because it is best to do good, that God does good. Goodness is what it is because God is good. It is derived of God, as is existence and reality, the way of things, fact itself, and reasoning, logic. You simply don't know what God is doing. I would suggest a good study of the philosophical terms, 'Divine Simplicity' and 'Aseity'.

Morality is objective, given by God. When Christ summarizes the Law of God by two commands, to love God with all one's being, and to love one's neighbor as himself, these are not, by being interpreted, sifted through one's thoughts and feelings, thus become morality due to our subjective considerations. They were moral standards first, before we were even aware of them, to react to them.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes for His own sake as well as ours. Let me ask you a question. God is God. Why should he bother caring about us anyway?

Exactly. "What is man, that you should be mindful of him?"

 

[Carl Emerson]

Is it possible that the 'trauma' of tossing a dart into your sister's leg - coupled with the active imagination and/or guilt of a naughty 8 yr old boy - might have led you to see and hear something that wasn't actually there?


Additionally, you do realize, of course, that the historical Jesus almost certainly looked nothing like the light complected, fine haired figure depicted in {largely European} religious art

This was not imagination, it was an encounter.

I am not really interested in theories, I have seen too much to question the veracity of the event.

You could make the same claim about the conversion of St. Paul.

 

[Mark Quayle]

To think we can love God without loving others is a big mistake.

This makes me think of how the angels are, who apparently thoroughly love us, instead of being jealous, because, we who are completely unworthy, will because of God's particular love for us be made above the angels in the end. They love us because God loves us. They 'long to look into' these things, for one reason, I think, because it doesn't make sense to them either, that God should have any particular interest in creating and working on us. But he does. All of Creation, including the angels, was made for this purpose, to God's glory.

 

[Treeplanter]

If morality is only filtered through thoughts and feelings, it is no longer morality, but conscience perhaps, or conceptually a reference point. Morality itself came from somewhere besides what we call natural.

You are the one suggesting that morality exists independently of God, claiming it is subjective.

Here you are supposing God to be like us --one who must reason concerning whether a thing to do is moral?? It is not because it is best to do good, that God does good. Goodness is what it is because God is good. It is derived of God, as is existence and reality, the way of things, fact itself, and reasoning, logic. You simply don't know what God is doing. I would suggest a good study of the philosophical terms, 'Divine Simplicity' and 'Aseity'.

Morality is objective, given by God. When Christ summarizes the Law of God by two commands, to love God with all one's being, and to love one's neighbor as himself, these are not, by being interpreted, sifted through one's thoughts and feelings, thus become morality due to our subjective considerations. They were moral standards first, before we were even aware of them, to react to them.

No, I am NOT suggesting that God's morality exists independent of Him

What I am saying is that God's morality, having been filtered through His thoughts and feelings, comes from Him and is, by definition, subjective

If God's morality were objective - as you suggest that it is - then this means that it was not filtered through His thoughts and feelings and, therefore, does not come from Him, but is rather an outside definition to which He subscribes


And just because morality is subjective, this does NOT mean that there are no universally recognized moral values

I can sum up my moral code quite distinctly:

To consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm is immoral
All else is either moral or morally acceptable

And here's the kicker:

I share my moral code with most every human being on earth
Yourself included, I'm sure


God, as described in scripture, oftentimes consciously and purposefully inflicts needless harm upon His creation {us}

You said earlier that God is fundamentally better than His creatures {us}
How do reconcile this assertion with God consciously and purposefully inflicting needless harm?

 

[Treeplanter]

This was not imagination, it was an encounter.

I am not really interested in theories, I have seen too much to question the veracity of the event.

You could make the same claim about the conversion of St. Paul.

So you won't even entertain the possibility that you might have been mistaken?

 

[Treeplanter]

Exactly. "What is man, that you should be mindful of him?"

I prefer
"Man is the measure of all things"