Yin and Yang? Not in My Bible!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
50
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Matthew 22:36-39
36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the great and first commandment.

39 And a second like [unto it] is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.


No, you are just reading what you want to read into these scriptures. What it actually says is that firstly we are to love God. Not call Him, holy, or to be holy like Him, although we should want to be. But to LOVE Him. Secondly we must love our neighbour. Not be holy to our neighbour, though it would help us all greatly. But to LOVE them. Nothing about holiness is mentioned in this portion of scripture.

God is holy
In fact, God is holy, holy, holy!

To love God is to recognize His holiness
God cannot be separated from His holiness

God demands our love precisely because it serves to glorify Him and His name

Aside from this, though, what of the proclamation that it is more important for us to love Him than it is for us to love our fellow man?

Shouldn't God care more about us being good and loving people for the sake of benefiting us than He does about us satisfying His needs?
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
50
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
He made Himself of no reputation to deal with your sin, and you are going to judge Him for having high standards?

No one can force you to stop judging, but if you really feel the need you should really ask yourself why, don't you think?
We all judge, Song
Yourself included

There is nothing wrong with forming moral opinions and conclusions of others based upon their words and deeds

In fact, it is a highly beneficial and necessary practice


I don't see how selfishness, at the expense of selflessness, can be considered a high standard???
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
50
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Are you judging God or the Bible? or one of the many the Biblical images of God? They only point to an idea based on their original contexts.

If you want to judge God you need to come to know God in your own experience.
If that isn't happening it is just an intellectual exercise.
I am judging God as presented in the bible

I judge God based on what scripture tells us He thought and said and did / thinks and says and does
 
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
6,924
5,005
69
Midwest
✟283,519.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I am judging God as presented in the bible

I judge God based on what scripture tells us He thought and said and did / thinks and says and does
OK

How about a wider understanding that might include other religions, other philosophies. I know that sounds nebulous. I believe in a God that makes sense to me. Not exactly a Biblical fundamentalist.
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
50
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
No wonder you are an atheist.
I see justice just as much a human concern toward each other as toward God, an expression of Love.

I view the scriptures and Christ with little more freedom. Only God knows the eternal destiny of anyone.

Again we come to love, the great commandment. Love is also the fulfillment of Torah as Jesus told us.

Matthew 25
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

I've no problem with tossing God's attribute of justice in with His nature as love

You asked me if justice falls under the heading of God as LOVE or God's HOLINESS
It might be both and that is fine

What isn't fine, in my opinion, is that when there is conflict between the two - God's HOLINESS always takes precedence over His LOVE
 
Upvote 0

SongOnTheWind

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2021
670
375
39
Croydon
✟26,712.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We all judge, Song
Yourself included

There is nothing wrong with forming moral opinions and conclusions of others based upon their words and deeds

In fact, it is a highly beneficial and necessary practice


I don't see how selfishness, at the expense of selflessness, can be considered a high standard???
Yes, we all judge. We have to make a judgements every day. That's part of existence and survival. I guess the kind of judgement I am against is criticism. It's generally unpleasant, and unless it's constructive; unnecessary. Especially if one is not well acquainted by experience or study of the subject that is the target of said criticism.

Being a Christian, I really don't think it's a healthy thing to criticize God, especially in light of the verses I previously referenced.

:)
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
50
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
OK

How about a wider understanding that might include other religions, other philosophies. I know that sounds nebulous. I believe in a God that makes sense to me. Not exactly a Biblical fundamentalist.
Sure, but what exactly are you asking?

I see you are Catholic
That is my background also

One thing that I have always appreciated about Catholicism/Catholics is that it/they tend to shy away from biblical fundamentalism!
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
50
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Yes, we all judge. We have to make a judgements every day. That's part of existence and survival. I guess the kind of judgement I am against is criticism. It's generally unpleasant, and unless it's constructive; unnecessary. Especially if one is not well acquainted by experience or study of the subject that is the target of said criticism.

Being a Christian, I really don't think it's a healthy thing to criticize God, especially in light of the verses I previously referenced.

:)
I appreciate where you are coming from, but you must understand that I am coming from an entirely different place and have no compunction in leveling criticism towards the Christian God when I believe that it is warranted
 
Upvote 0

SongOnTheWind

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2021
670
375
39
Croydon
✟26,712.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I appreciate where you are coming from, but you must understand that I am coming from an entirely different place and have no compunction in leveling criticism towards the Christian God when I believe that it is warranted

I have thicker skin than that. I can take the disagreement, and I am quite happy to disagree with you, and I don't feel the need to be ugly about it. I just don't think it's healthy to be so critical, or necessary. Especially when yours seem so unfounded. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but it just seems as though you are simply looking for any excuse to criticise God. You picked Love and Holiness. Things to criticize God for? Really?

God's love, in all its ways, is perfect. God's Holiness is, in short, perfection. And because we are not perfect, we fall short of it. If you want to criticise it, have at it. But I don't see where it will get you, or what you will gain from it. I could hypothesise, but I wouldn't want to assume your motives here. I hope I'm wrong, but that's the way it seems.
 
Upvote 0

Baby Cottontail

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2016
834
273
41
Northwest Ohio
✟19,571.00
Faith
United Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Don't you see, though - God does not offer us redemption for our sake
{the selfless thing to do}
{the loving thing to do}
{the outwardly directed thing to do}

God offers us redemption for His own sake - so that His holy name be praised and glorified
{the selfish thing to do}
{the holy thing to do}
{the inwardly directed thing to do}


*I hope you're right, where my scenario of repentance after death is concerned, but the vast majority of Christians with whom I have conversed assure me that in such a case - God will cast such a soul into the Lake of Fire
You and I are approaching the Bible from different starting premises. I understand how you are viewing it, I think.

First of all, you are approaching holiness as a selfish, inward focused attribute that permeates all things that God does, including the redemption of humanity.

While, yes, there are definitely passages that talk about God doing things for His own sake, for His glory, to make Himself known, etc, this is not in every passage that talks about God’s actions. You seem to be reading that into these passages, almost making that be entirely God’s focus and purpose for humanity.

I will appeal to church tradition here. I don’t see your view being expressed historically by the church or any Christian group.

The senior pastor of a church I had attended while in graduate school had grown up Jewish. I appreciated his insights on things because of his unique perspective. He wrote a paper on the difference between Jewish thinking and Greek thinking, which I found very interesting. He said something like Jewish thinking tends to accept information in chunks, not linearly. Greek thinking is very linear, like taking one piece of information of something and going with it, then taking another piece of information, and trying hard to reconcile and apparent discrepancies.

This might be a little of what is at play here. You are viewing God’s holiness as totally dominating over everything else about God, including His love, turning them into opposites, when it doesn’t appear to me that the Bible is doing that.

If you were able to create your own world the way you wanted it, and then created creatures to inhabit it, wouldn’t you want those creatures to acknowledge your existence and look to you for direction? Wouldn’t you want to protect them as best as you could? And if one of these creatures turned against you and tried to get other creatures to turn against you as well, or even to harm them, wouldn’t you want to try to protect the other creatures from that harm? And if they turned on you and made up their own gods, wouldn’t you want them to turn back to you?

I still believe that everything God has done is out of His great love for humanity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Carl Emerson
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
50
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I have thicker skin than that. I can take the disagreement, and I am quite happy to disagree with you, and I don't feel the need to be ugly about it. I just don't think it's healthy to be so critical, or necessary. Especially when yours seem so unfounded. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but it just seems as though you are simply looking for any excuse to criticise God. You picked Love and Holiness. Things to criticize God for? Really?

God's love, in all its ways, is perfect. God's Holiness is, in short, perfection. And because we are not perfect, we fall short of it. If you want to criticise it, have at it. But I don't see where it will get you, or what you will gain from it. I could hypothesise, but I wouldn't want to assume your motives here. I hope I'm wrong, but that's the way it seems.

I am not criticizing love
Nor am I criticizing holiness

I am criticizing God on the basis of His placing a greater premium on Himself {i.e. His holiness} than He does on us {i.e. His love}

I am criticizing selfishness
Selfishness that trumps selflessness


I am glad to hear that you have thick skin and I honestly don't mean to offend, but I, frankly, think it is extraordinarily unhealthy to devote one's self to the god that is described in scripture and to assume, as absolute fact, no matter what He does, that He is always good and right and just and utterly above and beyond questioning and criticizing...

I, too, have thick skin
Please do let me know what you have hypothesized and assumed my motives to be

I'm curious as to what you think they are and will be more than happy, should your hunch prove wrong, to share with you what my motives actually are
 
Upvote 0

SongOnTheWind

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2021
670
375
39
Croydon
✟26,712.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am not criticizing love
Nor am I criticizing holiness

I am criticizing God on the basis of His placing a greater premium on Himself {i.e. His holiness} than He does on us {i.e. His love}

I am criticizing selfishness
Selfishness that trumps selflessness


I am glad to hear that you have thick skin and I honestly don't mean to offend, but I, frankly, think it is extraordinarily unhealthy to devote one's self to the god that is described in scripture and to assume, as absolute fact, no matter what He does, that He is always good and right and just and utterly above and beyond questioning and criticizing...

I, too, have thick skin
Please do let me know what you have hypothesized and assumed my motives to be

I'm curious as to what you think they are and will be more than happy, should your hunch prove wrong, to share with you what my motives actually are

He left His glory to die for our sin. I'm not seeing the selfishness, here. This is good news. This is salvation.

As for your motives, I don't even want to guess. You are presenting the information as you say you see it. I'll stick to addressing what you actually have to say.
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
50
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
You and I are approaching the Bible from different starting premises. I understand how you are viewing it, I think.

First of all, you are approaching holiness as a selfish, inward focused attribute that permeates all things that God does, including the redemption of humanity.

While, yes, there are definitely passages that talk about God doing things for His own sake, for His glory, to make Himself known, etc, this is not in every passage that talks about God’s actions. You seem to be reading that into these passages, almost making that be entirely God’s focus and purpose for humanity.

I will appeal to church tradition here. I don’t see your view being expressed historically by the church or any Christian group.

The senior pastor of a church I had attended while in graduate school had grown up Jewish. I appreciated his insights on things because of his unique perspective. He wrote a paper on the difference between Jewish thinking and Greek thinking, which I found very interesting. He said something like Jewish thinking tends to accept information in chunks, not linearly. Greek thinking is very linear, like taking one piece of information of something and going with it, then taking another piece of information, and trying hard to reconcile and apparent discrepancies.

This might be a little of what is at play here. You are viewing God’s holiness as totally dominating over everything else about God, including His love, turning them into opposites, when it doesn’t appear to me that the Bible is doing that.

If you were able to create your own world the way you wanted it, and then created creatures to inhabit it, wouldn’t you want those creatures to acknowledge your existence and look to you for direction? Wouldn’t you want to protect them as best as you could? And if one of these creatures turned against you and tried to get other creatures to turn against you as well, or even to harm them, wouldn’t you want to try to protect the other creatures from that harm? And if they turned on you and made up their own gods, wouldn’t you want them to turn back to you?

I still believe that everything God has done is out of His great love for humanity.

That God is holy isn't the issue
That God demands recognition for His holiness isn't so much the issue, either

The issue is that God places a greater premium upon His holiness, and the expectation that we recognize Him for it, than He does upon us, His creation

I agree, the concept of God's holiness is not specifically addressed in every passage of scripture and I am certainly not claiming that the entirety of God's focus and purpose for humanity revolves solely around us recognizing His holiness - i.e. praising and glorifying Him, but the fact remains that scripture makes clear the preeminence of God's holiness

God is love, yes, but His holiness takes precedence over His love

No two people interpret scripture in the exact same way, but I just don't see how anyone can possibly insist that God's desire to love us is on equal footing with His desire that we glorify His holy name when Isaiah 43:7 flat out tells us that He created us for the express purpose of glorifying His holy name

Again, this doesn't mean that God isn't love and that He doesn't love us - only that He loves Himself more - and this is something that offends me

I expect more of a god

I expect, at the very least, as much of a god as I do of a human parent and I expect a human parent to always put his/her child above him/herself!

At any rate, thanks for the chat
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
50
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
He left His glory to die for our sin. I'm not seeing the selfishness, here. This is good news. This is salvation.

As for your motives, I don't even want to guess. You are presenting the information as you say you see it. I'll stick to addressing what you actually have to say.

He died, for our sin, not to primarily benefit us, but rather to primarily benefit Himself!

If God ever really left His glory at all, it was only for a very brief time and it was done in order to further secure the everlasting praise and glorification of His holy name

Isaiah 48:9-11

"For my own name’s sake I delay my wrath;
for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you,
so as not to destroy you completely.
See, I have refined you, though not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this.
How can I let myself be defamed?
I will not yield my glory to another."

FOR MY OWN SAKE!
FOR MY OWN SAKE!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,734
10,041
78
Auckland
✟380,360.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I've no problem with tossing God's attribute of justice in with His nature as love

You asked me if justice falls under the heading of God as LOVE or God's HOLINESS
It might be both and that is fine

What isn't fine, in my opinion, is that when there is conflict between the two - God's HOLINESS always takes precedence over His LOVE

Can you explain how you, an atheist, can set yourself up as a font of wisdom concerning the Holiness of God?

Frankly the stance you take indicates your determination to be above God Himself in your judgements.

Without intellectual humility, you don't make it to square one in the God stakes.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: SongOnTheWind
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SongOnTheWind

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2021
670
375
39
Croydon
✟26,712.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
He died, for our sin, not to primarily benefit us, but rather to primarily benefit Himself!

If God ever really left His glory at all, it was only for a very brief time and it was done in order to further secure the everlasting praise and glorification of His holy name

Isaiah 48:9-11

"For my own name’s sake I delay my wrath;
for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you,
so as not to destroy you completely.
See, I have refined you, though not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this.
How can I let myself be defamed?
I will not yield my glory to another."

FOR MY OWN SAKE!
FOR MY OWN SAKE!

For my own sake, and peace of mind, I feed my kids. I bathe them. I make sure they go to sleep on time. I make sure they go to school. For my own sake, I would stand between them and harm's way. For my own sake, I would die for them. Why? Because I love them so much that it does me good to make sure that I care for them. I have no glory or wrath to satisfy, because I am not GOD. But if anyone wants to do anything to my kids? They will have to get through me, first. How can I live with myself otherwise?

Do you have a name so holy that you dare not let it be defamed?
God is God, He can do what He likes. We don't get to dictate to Him.
I am an adult. My children do not dictate to me. And if they ever used my name as a curse word, I would be offended, disappointed and feel utterly disrespected. I'm their mother, I gave birth to them.

How much more God, who has given us the very breath of life?

And yet He gives you the free will to do whatever it is you want to do. Think about that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Carl Emerson
Upvote 0

Baby Cottontail

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2016
834
273
41
Northwest Ohio
✟19,571.00
Faith
United Methodist
Marital Status
Single
That God is holy isn't the issue
That God demands recognition for His holiness isn't so much the issue, either

The issue is that God places a greater premium upon His holiness, and the expectation that we recognize Him for it, than He does upon us, His creation

I agree, the concept of God's holiness is not specifically addressed in every passage of scripture and I am certainly not claiming that the entirety of God's focus and purpose for humanity revolves solely around us recognizing His holiness - i.e. praising and glorifying Him, but the fact remains that scripture makes clear the preeminence of God's holiness

God is love, yes, but His holiness takes precedence over His love

No two people interpret scripture in the exact same way, but I just don't see how anyone can possibly insist that God's desire to love us is on equal footing with His desire that we glorify His holy name when Isaiah 43:7 flat out tells us that He created us for the express purpose of glorifying His holy name

Again, this doesn't mean that God isn't love and that He doesn't love us - only that He loves Himself more - and this is something that offends me

I expect more of a god

I expect, at the very least, as much of a god as I do of a human parent and I expect a human parent to always put his/her child above him/herself!

At any rate, thanks for the chat
Since you are thanking me for the chat, I am assuming that you feel that your conversation with me is over, and that you are not really looking for me to respond to your post.

That is fair. I think you and I probably have reached an impasse, and that I would just be repeating the things I already said about God’s love towards humanity in the sacrificial death of Jesus.

But anyway, thank you for the discussion, and I hope that you find what you are looking for. All the best to you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Carl Emerson
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
50
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Since you are thanking me for the chat, I am assuming that you feel that your conversation with me is over, and that you are not really looking for me to respond to your post.

That is fair. I think you and I probably have reached an impasse, and that I would just be repeating the things I already said about God’s love towards humanity in the sacrificial death of Jesus.

But anyway, thank you for the discussion, and I hope that you find what you are looking for. All the best to you.
Actually, I didn't mean that at all

I am more than happy to continue if you care to!
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
50
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
For my own sake, and peace of mind, I feed my kids. I bathe them. I make sure they go to sleep on time. I make sure they go to school. For my own sake, I would stand between them and harm's way. For my own sake, I would die for them. Why? Because I love them so much that it does me good to make sure that I care for them. I have no glory or wrath to satisfy, because I am not GOD. But if anyone wants to do anything to my kids? They will have to get through me, first. How can I live with myself otherwise?

Do you have a name so holy that you dare not let it be defamed?
God is God, He can do what He likes. We don't get to dictate to Him.
I am an adult. My children do not dictate to me. And if they ever used my name as a curse word, I would be offended, disappointed and feel utterly disrespected. I'm their mother, I gave birth to them.

How much more God, who has given us the very breath of life?

And yet He gives you the free will to do whatever it is you want to do. Think about that.

You are touching upon something I have given a great deal of thought to over the years and have, on occasion, struggled with

If, as you are suggesting, what we feel towards {and do for} our so-called loved ones is motivated by how it makes us, ourselves, feel - then perhaps love, itself, is nothing more than an illusion...?

Perhaps we are all as inwardly directed and selfish as a god who puts himself, always, first?

Is this what you are meaning to imply?


"God is God and He can do as He likes" is true only to the extent that we are utterly powerless to stop Him

Since when, though, does might make right?
Just because God CAN do whatever He pleases does not mean that He has a moral right to do so


If God, as you claim, has granted me the free will to do what I want then I am grateful and thank Him for it

This does not, however, negate the fact that God cares more for Himself than He does us

Let me ask you a question:
If I consciously and purposefully set your house on fire and then pulled you from the flames - would you praise me or condemn me for my actions?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
50
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Can you explain how you, an atheist, can set yourself up as a font of wisdom concerning the Holiness of God?

Frankly the stance you take indicates your determination to be above God Himself in your judgements.

Without intellectual humility, you don't make it to square one in the God stakes.

I don't claim to be a font of wisdom concerning the Holiness of God!

I am simply repeating what is written in scripture

Nor do I claim to be of any greater moral character than most any other person on earth - yourself included, I'm sure

The only difference I see between you and me is that you think that God needn't abide by our shared morality and I think that, if He wants to be judged worthy of our devotion, then He does
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.