Yet Another False Accusation!!!!!

[Biblewriter]

Now someone is accusing Scofield of actively encouraging the destruction of Russia. That is complete nonsense and absolutely untrue. I have been a dispensationalist for 60 years, and a teacher among them for more than forty years, and have never, even once, heard even one dispensationalist advocate the destruction of Russia.

For those who actually know ancient history and geography, there can be no doubt whatsoever that the Gog of Ezekiel 38 and 39 comes from what is now called Russia.

Ezekiel 38:2 clearly says that Gog is "of the land of Magog." At the time this was written, Magog was inhabiting the area now known as Russia.

Gog is explicitly stated to be the "prince of Rosh, Meshech, And Tubal."

In the Septuagint Rosh is Ros. These are simply the Hebrew and Greek forms of the name of the ancient Rus people, the people for whom Russia is named. Meshach is simply the Hebrew name of the people of Muscovy, the area around Moscow, And Tubal Is the Hebrew name of the Tobol people, for whom Tobolisk is named.

While this understanding is unimpeachable, it does not originate with any dispensationalist, much less Scofied/

The Patriarch Proclus, who served from 434 to 447 A.D. preached a sermon in which he linked Ezekiel 38 with invaders coming out of what is now Russia. The church historian Socrates Scholasticus reported on that sermon in these words:

On this occasion, Proclus the bishop preached a sermon in the church in which he applied a prophecy out of Ezekiel to the deliverance effected by God in the late emergency, and was in consequence much admired. This is the language of the prophecy:

“‘And thou, son of man, prophesy against Gog the prince of Rhos, Mosoch, and Thobel. For I will judge him with death, and with blood, and with overflowing rain, and with hail-stones. I will also rain fire and brimstone upon him, and upon all his bands, and upon many nations that are with him. And I will be magnified, and glorified, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations: and they shall know that I am the Lord.’

“This application of the prophecy was received with great applause, as I have said, and enhanced the estimation in which Proclus was held. Moreover the providence of God rewarded the meekness of the emperor in various other ways, one of which was the following.”
(“The Ecclesiastical History of Socrates Scholasticus,” Book VII, chapter 143, tran. A.C. Zenos, D.D., from Nicene & Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, ed. Philip Schaff, D.D., LL.D. and Henry Wace, D.D., Edinburgh, 1884, American Edition by A. Cleveland Coxe, D.D., Peabody, 1994, vol 2.)

This sermon was also cited in the first volume of George Vernadsky’s highly reputed work “A History of Russia," as the oldest known written reference to the ancient name Rus, for the Russian people did not have a written language until lng after that. (“A History of Russia,"pp. 138-139. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1943. Vernadsky said the patriarch Proclus cited Ezekiel’s prophecy in a sermon on the Hunnic invasion. He cited his source for this as Nicephorus Kallistus, XIV, 37.)

But there is an even older reference to this. For in the year 378 A.D., he Bishop Ambrose wrote the following:

"137. For Ezekiel, in those far-off days, already prophesied the minishing of our people, and the Gothic wars, saying: 'Prophesy, therefore, Son of Man, and say: O Gog, thus saith the Lord—Shalt thou not, in that day when My people Israel shall be established to dwell in peace, rise up and come forth from thy place, from the far north, and many nations with thee, all riders upon horses, a great and mighty gathering, and the valour of many hosts? Yea, go up against my people Israel, as clouds to cover the land, in the last days.'
138. That Gog is the Goth, whose coming forth we have already seen, and over whom victory in days to come is promised, according to the word of the Lord: 'And they shall spoil them, who had been their despoilers, and plunder them, who had carried off their goods for a prey, saith the Lord. And it shall be in that day, that I will give to Gog'—that is, to the Goths—'a place that is famous, for Israel an high-heaped tomb of many men, of men who have made their way to the sea, and it shall reach round about, and close the mouth of the valley, and there [the house of Israel shall] overthrow Gog and all his multitude, and it shall be called the valley of the multitude of Gog: and the house of Israel shall overwhelm them, that the land may be cleansed.'"
(“Exposition of the Christian Faith,” by Ambrose, book II, chapter XVI, sections 137-138, tran. by H. De Romestin, M.A., asst. by E. De Romestin, M.A., and H. T. F. Duckworth, M.A. from Nicene & Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, ed. Philip Schaff, D.D., LL.D. and Henry Wace, D.D., Edinburgh, 1884, American Edition by A. Cleveland Coxe, D.D., Peabody, 1994, vol 10.)

It is well known that the Goths were coming out of what is now Russia. So even the interpretation that this passage speaks of Russia is itself ancient.

Thus, the accusation against Scofield is conclusively proved to be wholly false.

 

[Interplanner]

And yet it is a prophecy about the destruction of the Russian people. Ie, it is completely different from saying, as Acts 13's sample sermon does, that all the promises to the fathers (of Israel) are fulfilled in the resurrection of Christ. Which is a happier note for our Russian friends.

So why 'rescue' Scofield when the accusation stands?

 

[Biblewriter]

And yet it is a prophecy about the destruction of the Russian people. Ie, it is completely different from saying, as Acts 13's sample sermon does, that all the promises to the fathers (of Israel) are fulfilled in the resurrection of Christ. Which is a happier note for our Russian friends.

So why 'rescue' Scofield when the accusation stands?

No, this is not a prophecy about the destruction of the Russian people. It is a prophecy about the destruction of the armies of the world, when they come down led by Russia.

There can be zero question that the leader of this great army is Russia. I pointed out that this was even understood in ancient times. But Russia is not the attacking army, and even Schofield did not say so. Russia is only the leader of the attacking army. What Scofield actually said was "That the primary reference is to the northern (European) powers, headed by Russia, all agree."

I devoted literally years to positively identifying the ancient nations named in this passage, and after I finished I checked my conclusions against the conclusions of modern historians who were not even commenting on scripture, but only interested in historical facts. I found that, in every case, they had reached the same conclusions I had reached.

This great Army includes "all the bands of Gomer." This is what Scofield was referring to in calling them "the northern (European) powers." For the same person called Gomer in the Hebrew scriptures is called Gamer in the Armenian histories. The Assyrians called this same people group the Gimmerra, and the Greeks called them the Cimmerrians.

It is a well known historical fact that the Cimmerrians were the ancestors of the peoples that the Romans called the Gauls, and that the Gauls in turn are the ancestors of the ethnic group that today is called the Celts, or Kelts. Since the prophecy explicitly includes "all the bands of Gomer," not "some" of them, this specifically includes most of the peoples of Western Europe, and by extension, most of the people of the United States, Canada, and Australia.

Togarmah is the root stock of the Armenian people, and Persia kept that name until my lifetime, when it changed its name to Iran. And Cush and Phut are the ancient names for the mostly black and mostly white regions of Africa.

So what this prophecy actually says is that basically the entire world, with the possible exception of the far east, will unite to attack Israel, led by Russia. And when they do, they will be totally defeated.

But there is an even bigger problem with the accusation. Those who really need to repent are any and all individuals who dare to exalt themselves against the word of God, and deny that anything He said wold happen will actually happen.

 

[Interplanner]

Well, "the head of something is often the name for the whole thing" so I dont' see a big distinction there. And that "Russia" is then destroyed. So I don't know why the person accusing about this would not say Russia would be destroyed.

In light of Acts 13, and Rom 11 saying that now in the Gospel all men are bound to sin, so that God can have mercy on them all, what is the point of destroying one ethnos or saving another? How is a battle near Israel, even if all these people's armies (not the people's themselves--oops, missed them)--how is that an act of the judgement of God? If it's going to be the judgement day of God, it should be all people in relation to Jesus Christ the 2nd Adam. This has been done in the Gospel, if we would believe it.

I'm asking why destroy one nation and not another. I recently reread some of the response to the PASSION OF THE CHRIST when it came out. The top groups of people to reject it were atheists and Jews. And those are the peoples, not the armies. What in the world does a defeat of a country's army have to do with the judgement of God?

 

[Notrash]

Again you appeal to ECF's and fallible men.
Scofield and his supporters simply re:minunderstood and re:misinterpreted it.

Applying prophecies that were given to and concerning an ancient peoples and the everlasting peoples who would spring (be restored from them is "missing the mark"

Who are or is the 'seed of Israel" whixh continues onward and sprang ot of the mosaic covt in jer 31? Any answer other than christians (israel of god; not moses) is undefendable from that context.

Likewise, after the circimcisiin of the heart is mentiined in the variius prophets; "my people israel" can ONLY refer to the non-racial internatiinal community of believers/followers of christ and of the everlasting covt established 2000 yrs ago.

Gog/magog was fulfilked in 132-135 AD when judea was repopulated with people of jewish/israel descent from the northern areas, (is 66) and folliwers if the new covt and Chriats words and authority. Bar kochbah again began persecuting the redeemed &good, even killing them. Kings and priests; (redeemed (is 66) were taken from those who had immigrated from the north. I
Compare Is 7-10 and especially the name of the son born to Isaiah and its meaning. Compare also 65 yrs prophecied in Is 7:8 with the time frame of 70-135 AD.

Compare the description in Ez 38/39 of the unwalled villages which had been cleared of wild beasts with wikipedia's description and the post 70AD environment.
You only have bad news.



...

 

[Biblewriter]

Well, "the head of something is often the name for the whole thing" so I dont' see a big distinction there. And that "Russia" is then destroyed. So I don't know why the person accusing about this would not say Russia would be destroyed.

In light of Acts 13, and Rom 11 saying that now in the Gospel all men are bound to sin, so that God can have mercy on them all, what is the point of destroying one ethnos or saving another? How is a battle near Israel, even if all these people's armies (not the people's themselves--oops, missed them)--how is that an act of the judgement of God? If it's going to be the judgement day of God, it should be all people in relation to Jesus Christ the 2nd Adam. This has been done in the Gospel, if we would believe it.

I'm asking why destroy one nation and not another. I recently reread some of the response to the PASSION OF THE CHRIST when it came out. The top groups of people to reject it were atheists and Jews. And those are the peoples, not the armies. What in the world does a defeat of a country's army have to do with the judgement of God?

I do not reason about why God says certain things will happen. I simply believe what He says. There is no way to even pretend that this has ever happened. So if God told the truth, it will happen in the future.

And the reason is not because of who they are, but because of what they will do. This is the world's final rebellion against God, after Messiah has come, and according to Revelation 20, they will do it again after the thousand year reign.

 

[Shocker]

I do not reason about why God says certain things will happen. I simply believe what He says. There is no way to even pretend that this has ever happened. So if God told the truth, it will happen in the future.

And the reason is not because of who they are, but because of what they will do. This is the world's final rebellion against God, after Messiah has come, and according to Revelation 20, they will do it again after the thousand year reign.

 

[Biblewriter]

Again you appeal to ECF's and fallible men.
Scofield and his supporters simply re:minunderstood and re:misinterpreted it.

And again, I will answer your false accusation that I am not "appealing" to ECFs and fallible men. I presented the undeniable proof that this doctrine did not come from Scofield. And I assure you that no one, and I repeat, no one, who has any real knowledge of ancient geography even debates that Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal absolutely identify Gog's home as what is now called Russia.

Applying prophecies that were given to and concerning an ancient peoples and the everlasting peoples who would spring (be restored from them is "missing the mark"

Applying prophecies about a specofic ethnic group to the ethnic group they explicitly name is the only way to even begin to understand the scriptures.

Who are or is the 'seed of Israel" whixh continues onward and sprang ot of the mosaic covt in jer 31? Any answer other than christians (israel of god; not moses) is undefendable from that context.

Here, once again, you are using your interpretation of the meaning of a few scriptures as an excuse to disbelieve an host of other scriptures.

Likewise, after the circimcisiin of the heart is mentiined in the variius prophets; "my people israel" can ONLY refer to the non-racial internatiinal community of believers/followers of christ and of the everlasting covt established 2000 yrs ago.

Gog/magog was fulfilked in 132-135 AD when judea was repopulated with people of jewish/israel descent from the northern areas, (is 66) and folliwers if the new covt and Chriats words and authority. Bar kochbah again began persecuting the redeemed &good, even killing them. Kings and priests; (redeemed (is 66) were taken from those who had immigrated from the north. I
Compare Is 7-10 and especially the name of the son born to Isaiah and its meaning. Compare also 65 yrs prophecied in Is 7:8 with the time frame of 70-135 AD.

Compare the description in Ez 38/39 of the unwalled villages which had been cleared of wild beasts with wikipedia's description and the post 70AD environment.
You only have bad news.



...

The miniscule repopulation that occurred in 132-135 A.D. most certainly did not include absolutely all of "the house of Israel," as eezekiel 36 plainly declared. And the Roman army that crushed Bar kochbah's revolt most certainly did not include all the Gauls, as the people of Gomer were called at that time, nor did it include the Armenians, the Persians, the Ethipoians, and the Lybians.

This is just another example of the utter groundlessness of the entire system of Preterism.

 

[Interplanner]

but that miniscule repopulation wouldn't matter BW because the Israel it was refering to was that of Eph 2-3. I didn't realize you weren't tracking on that. He (nor I) are trying for the literalism you are after.

 

[Notrash]

I didn't say you appealed to scofield.

did you read wikipedia which says that 925 unfortified villages were destroyed? Did yiu connect the meaning of the name of Isaiahs son (loot & plunder) with the similar prophecy in Ez?

Where are the wild beasts which the land must be cleared of before "YOUR" gog/magog can descend on horseback upon israel?

Is 9:12 says that his arm was not yet put down. The people were saying the bricks have fallen, but we will rebuild. His judgement upon the people who disbelieved the new prophet (Christ the redeemer) though they had been given the prophecies and oracles was not done. There was a second wave or diuble honour prophecied in Is 61:7 or 8 (and revelation) to the followers of peace and truth of the goodness of life.

 

[Old Timer]

They all know it's nonsense.. They're just trolls with no life who hate the truth and only try to destroy the faith once delivered to the saints..

If it wasn't so pathetic it would be sad..

 

[Biblewriter]

but that miniscule repopulation wouldn't matter BW because the Israel it was refering to was that of Eph 2-3. I didn't realize you weren't tracking on that. He (nor I) are trying for the literalism you are after.

Ephesians 2-3 most absolutely does not identify the church as Israel. It teaches that both Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ are now made into something new, something that did not exist before, the church.

There is not even one scripture anywhere that says that Israel is the church. We have been over this before, and all your interpretations cannot overcome the pure word of God, which very explicitly and repeatedly says that Israel will be restored in her own homeland.

 

[Biblewriter]

I didn't say you appealed to scofield.

No. You said I appealed to the ECFs. This is a false accusation that I have already repeatedly answered. To continue to accuse me of "appealing" to the ECFs is pure libel.

did you read wikipedia which says that 925 unfortified villages were destroyed? Did yiu connect the meaning of the name of Isaiahs son (loot & plunder) with the similar prophecy in Ez?

Where are the wild beasts which the land must be cleared of before "YOUR" gog/magog can descend on horseback upon israel?

Is 9:12 says that his arm was not yet put down. The people were saying the bricks have fallen, but we will rebuild. His judgement upon the people who disbelieved the new prophet (Christ the redeemer) though they had been given the prophecies and oracles was not done. There was a second wave or diuble honour prophecied in Is 61:7 or 8 (and revelation) to the followers of peace and truth of the goodness of life.

You cannot even pretend that the attacking army even resembled the one described in Ezakiel 38. End of story.

 

[Keachian]

They all know it's nonsense.. They're just trolls with no life who hate the truth and only try to destroy the faith once delivered to the saints..

If it wasn't so pathetic it would be sad..

Since when was defending Scofield defending the faith "once for all delivered" yes his notes are a big thing in dispensationalism maybe even Scripture but they are a novelty of the 19th-20th Century.

 

[Biblewriter]

Since when was defending Scofield defending the faith "once for all delivered" yes his notes are a big thing in dispensationalism maybe even Scripture but they are a novelty of the 19th-20th Century.

He was not speaking of my words about Scofield. He was speaking of simply believing scriture, that the army defined in Ezekiel 38 will invade Israel sometime in the future.

 

[Keachian]

He was not speaking of my words about Scofield. He was speaking of simply believing scriture, that the army defined in Ezzekiel 38 will invade Israel sometime in the future.

I think Israel can handle a horse-mounted army quite easily these days

 

[Notrash]

No. You said I appealed to the ECFs. This is a false accusation that I have already repeatedly answered. To continue to accuse me of "appealing" to the ECFs is pure libel.

You cannot even pretend that the attacking army even resembled the one described in Ezakiel 38. End of story.

You appeal to them for support. Why else would you quote from them? It's funny that you call it libel.

So you didn't look up the verses I take it. Nor did you answer the questions, nor look up the events of the bar kochbah revolt. Where again are the wild beasts tgat must be cleared of the land of wild beasts. Or does this refer to the muslims to you? And where are the horses and archers?

Newton was presented with the prophecies of Daniel and revelation and asked to predict the end of the world from them. It eventually consumed him. He was given false parameters as to what the prophecies pertained to. For they pertained to the time of the end of the nation, people groups, to whom they were prophesied; the law of moses and law of sin/death.

Likewise you have started with a premise that these are yet future, apply globally and are unfulfilled. We, I am sorry that you've spent 60 yrrs studying under a false premise or several premises; (still future restoraton of a dead covt).

So many times you use the words explicitly, clearly, unquestiinably etc etc etc ad nausium; but you and the futurist camp refuse to consider the time period, the temporary covt people, and the circumstances to whom they were prophesied and against.

Yes, I believe with much support and confirmation that Gog/Magog was 132-135 AD. In Is 10 it affirms an association of Damascus a samaria. Samaratains were a type and part of what the nortern tribes had become (gentiles) after the assyrian conquest. It is the descendants of the northern tribes along with other gentiles would have come to repopulate the land after the believers. It is these who attempted a re-establishment of national Israel after the new covt was established forever.

They became a second "grain offering" to the lord after they persecuted the way of truth and life. Is 66:19,20


Que: America: AMBER CASCADES.

We call to the man who walks on the water, we call to the man to stop all the slaughter (wars)......... It's in you, if you believe the intent & permission of slaughter and wars of God didn't stop in the time period of the establishment of the truths of the new , everlasting covt.

Good chatting!!!!!
..

L

 

[Biblewriter]

You appeal to them for support. Why else would you quote from them? It's funny that you call it libel.

So you didn't look up the verses I take it. Nor did you answer the questions, nor look up the events of the bar kochbah revolt. Where again are the wild beasts tgat must be cleared of the land of wild beasts. Or does this refer to the muslims to you? And where are the horses and archers?

Newton was presented with the prophecies of Daniel and revelation and asked to predict the end of the world from them. It eventually consumed him. He was given false parameters as to what the prophecies pertained to. For they pertained to the time of the end of the nation, people groups, to whom they were prophesied; the law of moses and law of sin/death.

Likewise you have started with a premise that these are yet future, apply globally and are unfulfilled. We, I am sorry that you've spent 60 yrrs studying under a false premise or several premises; (still future restoraton of a dead covt).

So many times you use the words explicitly, clearly, unquestiinably etc etc etc ad nausium; but you and the futurist camp refuse to consider the time period, the temporary covt people, and the circumstances to whom they were prophesied and against.

Yes, I believe with much support and confirmation that Gog/Magog was 132-135 AD. In Is 10 it affirms an association of Damascus a samaria. Samaratains were a type and part of what the nortern tribes had become (gentiles) after the assyrian conquest. It is the descendants of the northern tribes along with other gentiles would have come to repopulate the land after the believers. It is these who attempted a re-establishment of national Israel after the new covt was established forever.

They became a second "grain offering" to the lord after they persecuted the way of truth and life. Is 66:19,20


Que: America: AMBER CASCADES.

We call to the man who walks on the water, we call to the man to stop all the slaughter (wars)......... It's in you, if you believe the intent & permission of slaughter and wars of God didn't stop in the time period of the establishment of the truths of the new , everlasting covt.

Good chatting!!!!!
..

L

Your raving is exactly that. I do not approach prophecy through a "futuristic" lens. I approach it from a "God cannot lie" lens.

I pointed out the undeniable fact that the Roman Army that put down the Bar Kochbah attack did not even resemble the army precisely defined in Ezekiel 38. That is enough to absolutely prove that this was not a fulfillment of this prophecy.

All the Old Testament prophecies that have already been fulfilled were fulfilled literally, down to the tiniest detail. The fifillment was, in many cases, so precisely accurate that unbelievers claimed that its very precision proved it could not have been written until after the events took place. Two examples of this are Daniel 11:2-34 and about fifty prophecies about the first coming of Jesus.

You do not like it when I say that God "explicitly" said so-and-so. But I say it because that is exactly what God said. And you do not like it when I say that something that God has said would happen has "undeniably" not happened. But I only say this when I absolutely know that recorded history contains no such event, anywhere.

I am sorry that you have wasted a lifetime of study vainly trying to prove that God never had any intention of doing what he explicitly said He was going to do. You refuse to admit it, but this is rank unbelief that comes out of the darkness of Rome.

 

[Keachian]

Your raving is exactly that. I do not approach prophecy through a "futuristic" lens. I approach it from a "God cannot lie" lens.

You will ever be searching for a fulfillment to Ezek 38, we have simply passed the point where horses are viable technology in war.

 

[Shocker]

You will ever be searching for a fulfillment to Ezek 38, we have simply passed the point where horses are viable technology in war.

horses don't have lion heads and shoot fire and brimstone from their mouths.