Yes Sabbath! because neither OT nor NT can be ignored!

[BobRyan]

Scripture does matter - all of it.

I have a post on another thread #481- where I emphasize that Bible details matter in BOTH the NT and the OT - when it comes to doctrine on the Bible Sabbath

It is my view that "Scripture matters" and so that means we have to accept the teaching of BOTH the NT and the OT - not just one or the other.

Sometimes we hear this from those opposed to the Bible Sabbath as the primary day of worship for Christians.

1. the primary worship service on the Lord's Day (meaning week-day-1) is embodied in the New Testament
2. (as well as established by the history of the Church),
3. and we are further instructed not to any longer be governed by days, etc.
4. Since the New Testament counts - we notice in it that the decision to make the day that the Lord rose from the grave be the main day of worship for the church of Christ is part of that word of God .​

In response I would begin with this

1. I think we all agree that - We either believe the revealed word of God or we don't.
2. If Bible Sabbath keeping Christians could find the 4 statements above in the Bible (in the NT for example) this would be a much less actively debated topic.
3. One of the biggest drivers for people keeping the Bible Sabbath - who used to keep week-day-1 as the primary day of worship - is due to the fact that they could not support statements such as the above -- sola scriptura.
​

In other words for many Bible Sabbath keeping Christians "sola scriptura testing - results in Bible Sabbath keeping" because both OT and NT do count and need to be considered.

If the 4 affirmations of the Sunday keeping groups as noted above cannot be supported "sola scriptura" then .. "Houston - we have a problem".

============================== Simple illustration

One of these two examples is actually in the bible:

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, because this was the new weekly day of worship for the church, Paul discoursed with them, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and prolonged his speech until midnight.

(Acts 20:7 would be the perfect place to inform the reader that this is not a one-off week-day-1 service... but rather it is the WEEKLY - LORD's Day service which is now the name of honor given to week-day-1. And since the text goes to the trouble of explaining why they are doing what they are doing - all the more reason to include this bit of news)

 

[BobRyan]

In Acts 15 part of the "solution" to the man-made-tradition newly created by some Christian Jews - stating that gentiles need to be circumcised to be saved - is said to be that Christians are already hearing "Moses preached every Sabbath in the Synagogues".

How can that be if Christians aren't attending Sabbath services in the Synagogues?

Notice that we see gentile Christians in the synagogue "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4 - not just the non-Christian ones. And we see gentiles who accept the Christian gospel - specifically asking for MORE Gospel preaching "the NEXT Sabbath" - in Acts 13.

 

[BobRyan]

1. EVERY reference to the word "SABBATH" in the NT where a religious service is being held - is a reference to the seventh day of the week.

2. There is only ONE reference to the term "Lord's Day" in the New Testament and it is somewhat ambigous because it most certainly does not say "hey did you know that week-day-1 is now called the LORD's Day?" or anything remotely like that.

 

[Abaxvahl]

1. the primary worship service on the Lord's Day (meaning week-day-1) is embodied in the New Testament
2. (as well as established by the history of the Church),
3. and we are further instructed not to any longer be governed by days, etc.
4. Since the New Testament counts - we notice in it that the decision to make the day that the Lord rose from the grave be the main day of worship for the church of Christ is part of that word of God .​

In response I would begin with this

1. I think we all agree that - We either believe the revealed word of God or we don't.
2. If Bible Sabbath keeping Christians could find the 4 statements above in the Bible (in the NT for example) this would be a much less actively debated topic.
3. One of the biggest drivers for people keeping the Bible Sabbath - who used to keep week-day-1 as the primary day of worship - is due to the fact that they could not support statements such as the above -- sola scriptura.
​

In other words for many Bible Sabbath keeping Christians "sola scriptura testing - results in Bible Sabbath keeping" because both OT and NT do count and need to be considered.

Sola Scriptura =/= ignoring Church history and context to come up with a novel interpretation. Not even Protestants do this.

In my view Scripture matters, and one does not rip Scripture from it's historical context in the Church to learn to interpret it, but it is to be interpreted in the whole Church, in all of the reveal words of God (of which the Sacred Page is a portion).

 

[Abaxvahl]

In Acts 15 part of the "solution" to the man-made-tradition newly created by some Christian Jews - stating that gentiles need to be circumcised to be saved - is said to be that Christians are already hearing "Moses preached every Sabbath in the Synagogues".

How can that be if Christians aren't attending Sabbath services in the Synagogues?

Notice that we see gentile Christians in the synagogue "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4 - not just the non-Christian ones. And we see gentiles who accept the Christian gospel - specifically asking for MORE Gospel preaching "the NEXT Sabbath" - in Acts 13.

Before the Lord Jesus destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem they attended the Sabbath at the synagogues there. Christians were even doing this for centuries in addition to observing the Lord's Day, to where St. John Chrysostom had to make his sermons "Against the Judaizers" to refute these practices. Just because they attended it doesn't mean that observance was required or that it refutes the position of those who observe the Lord's Day/Resurrection Sunday.

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 4:9 condemns even one observance of a Roman pagan holy day.
Rom 14:1-9 condemns anyone who judges someone for keeping one of the Bible approved annual holy days in Lev 23 saying that it is up to each person if they want to observe one of them above the others - or observe them all because he who observes the day - observes it to the Lord

 

[BobRyan]

Sola Scriptura =/= ignoring Church history and context to come up with a novel interpretation. Not even Protestants do this.

In my view Scripture matters, and one does not rip Scripture from it's historical context in the Church to learn to interpret it, but it is to be interpreted in the whole Church, in all of the reveal words of God (of which the Sacred Page is a portion).

How does Jesus model the use of Church tradition --vs-- scripture in the case of the magesterium of the one-true-nation church started by God at Sinai -- with High Priest successors chosen as per God's ordained plan - in Mark 7:6-13 in your POV?

=================================
Mark 7:
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

 

[Abaxvahl]

Gal 4:9 condemns even one observance of a Roman pagan holy day.
Rom 14:1-9 condemns anyone who judges someone for keeping one of the Bible approved annual holy days in Lev 23 saying that it is up to each person if they want to observe one of them above the others - or observe them all because he who observes the day - observes it to the Lord

Justify these readings from the text, it seems to be eisegesis.

 

[BobRyan]

Justify these readings from the text, it seems to be eisegesis.

Gal 4:9 addressing former pagans newly turned to Christianity

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain

That is a condemnation of Paganism - not a condemnation of the Bible that we see in Gal 4

===================

Notice how that fits perfectly with 1 Cor 8 - where pagans newly turned Christian are called "weak in the faith"

1 Cor 8
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we (Jews, esp Christian Jews) know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us (Christian Jews) there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

(former pagans newly converted to Christianity tended treat idols as real entities whom they now reject in choosing the enemy of those idols - the true God of the Bible.)

8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.

9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

 

[Abaxvahl]

How does Jesus model the use of Church tradition --vs-- scripture in the case of the magesterium of the one-true-nation church started by God at Sinai -- with High Priest successors chosen as per God's ordained plan - in Mark 7:6-13 in your POV?

By Matthew 23:1-3, approving of their just traditions elsewhere, and condemning their false ones. Moreover I just deny He is modeling any of this for it is an abuse to apply it how He did not. I am not sure what you think Church Tradition is really, but it is the handing-down of the whole life of the Church from one generation to the next, which ultimately is the Holy Spirit. In one degree or another all must rely on it, how they theologize about this is up to them.

 

[BobRyan]

When I ask you how Jesus applied the model of comparing church tradition with scripture in Mark 7:6-13 your response is not to even look at that text?

By Matthew 23:1-3, approving of their just traditions

Jesus does not say "I decree your tradition to be not-just" in Mark 7:6-13 - rather he specifically uses the sola-scriptura test - to determine the case as we saw in this post.

Your response that the fact that error was taught via tradition did not make all the teaching of the Jewish leaders false is not disputed. The issue here is the method "of testing" to see which traditions are error. Jesus' method in Mark 7 is the "sola scriptura test".

Mark 7:
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

The above is the post you are responding to while not actually dealing with any detail in Mark 7

 

[BobRyan]

Before the Lord Jesus destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem they attended the Sabbath at the synagogues there. .

All the references to synagogues in my post - were from synagogues outside of Jerusalem. Synagogues in gentile cities

 

[Abaxvahl]

All the references to synagogues in my post - were from synagogues outside of Jerusalem. Synagogues in gentile cities

Therefore I said "Christians were even doing this for centuries in addition to observing the Lord's Day, to where St. John Chrysostom had to make his sermons 'Against the Judaizers' to refute these practices..." which was centuries after the destruction of Jerusalem. I am aware of that it also happened outside of there.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Scripture does matter - all of it.

I have a post on another thread #481- where I emphasize that Bible details matter in BOTH the NT and the OT - when it comes to doctrine on the Bible Sabbath

It is my view that "Scripture matters" and so that means we have to accept the teaching of BOTH the NT and the OT - not just one or the other.

Sometimes we hear this from those opposed to the Bible Sabbath as the primary day of worship for Christians.

1. the primary worship service on the Lord's Day (meaning week-day-1) is embodied in the New Testament
2. (as well as established by the history of the Church),
3. and we are further instructed not to any longer be governed by days, etc.
4. Since the New Testament counts - we notice in it that the decision to make the day that the Lord rose from the grave be the main day of worship for the church of Christ is part of that word of God .​

In response I would begin with this

1. I think we all agree that - We either believe the revealed word of God or we don't.
2. If Bible Sabbath keeping Christians could find the 4 statements above in the Bible (in the NT for example) this would be a much less actively debated topic.
3. One of the biggest drivers for people keeping the Bible Sabbath - who used to keep week-day-1 as the primary day of worship - is due to the fact that they could not support statements such as the above -- sola scriptura.
​

In other words for many Bible Sabbath keeping Christians "sola scriptura testing - results in Bible Sabbath keeping" because both OT and NT do count and need to be considered.

If the 4 affirmations of the Sunday keeping groups as noted above cannot be supported "sola scriptura" then .. "Houston - we have a problem".

============================== Simple illustration

One of these two examples is actually in the bible:

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, because this was the new weekly day of worship for the church, Paul discoursed with them, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and prolonged his speech until midnight.

(Acts 20:7 would be the perfect place to inform the reader that this is not a one-off week-day-1 service... but rather it is the WEEKLY - LORD's Day service which is now the name of honor given to week-day-1. And since the text goes to the trouble of explaining why they are doing what they are doing - all the more reason to include this bit of news)

The moon matters, but the sun is what we notice the most.

 

[Dale]

Scripture does matter - all of it.

I have a post on another thread #481- where I emphasize that Bible details matter in BOTH the NT and the OT - when it comes to doctrine on the Bible Sabbath

It is my view that "Scripture matters" and so that means we have to accept the teaching of BOTH the NT and the OT - not just one or the other.

Sometimes we hear this from those opposed to the Bible Sabbath as the primary day of worship for Christians.

1. the primary worship service on the Lord's Day (meaning week-day-1) is embodied in the New Testament
2. (as well as established by the history of the Church),
3. and we are further instructed not to any longer be governed by days, etc.
4. Since the New Testament counts - we notice in it that the decision to make the day that the Lord rose from the grave be the main day of worship for the church of Christ is part of that word of God .​

In response I would begin with this

1. I think we all agree that - We either believe the revealed word of God or we don't.
2. If Bible Sabbath keeping Christians could find the 4 statements above in the Bible (in the NT for example) this would be a much less actively debated topic.
3. One of the biggest drivers for people keeping the Bible Sabbath - who used to keep week-day-1 as the primary day of worship - is due to the fact that they could not support statements such as the above -- sola scriptura.
​

In other words for many Bible Sabbath keeping Christians "sola scriptura testing - results in Bible Sabbath keeping" because both OT and NT do count and need to be considered.

If the 4 affirmations of the Sunday keeping groups as noted above cannot be supported "sola scriptura" then .. "Houston - we have a problem".

============================== Simple illustration

One of these two examples is actually in the bible:

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, because this was the new weekly day of worship for the church, Paul discoursed with them, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and prolonged his speech until midnight.

(Acts 20:7 would be the perfect place to inform the reader that this is not a one-off week-day-1 service... but rather it is the WEEKLY - LORD's Day service which is now the name of honor given to week-day-1. And since the text goes to the trouble of explaining why they are doing what they are doing - all the more reason to include this bit of news)

The Seventh Day Adventists habitually ignore and misconstrue both the OT and the NT. They are terrible guides to what is in the Bible. Their founder started this trend and they haven't backed away from her misunderstandings.

 

[.Jeremiah.]

This came to mind after reading the discussion above:

Mark 7:7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[SkyWriting]

It is my view that "Scripture matters" and so that means...

That you have not read scripture as much as needed.

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Romans 1:19
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

Isaiah 40:26
Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.

Psalm 19:1-6
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.

Psalm 8:3
When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,

Romans 2:15
They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

Deuteronomy 4:19
And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

This came to mind after reading the discussion above:

Mark 7:7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Good point. I have that here #7 - in my post above

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Romans 1:19
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

Isaiah 40:26
Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.

Psalm 19:1-6
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.

Psalm 8:3
When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,

Romans 2:15
They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

Deuteronomy 4:19
And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.

have you considered some text of explanation as to how you are connecting that to this topic (other than everyone agrees that God is the Creator of course)

 

[BobRyan]

The Seventh Day Adventists habitually ignore and misconstrue both the OT and the NT. They are terrible guides... <obligatory rant deleted here>.

Aside from a string of false accusations - did you have an actual argument to make for or against the texts posted?