YES or NO: Do The 10 Commandments Still Apply To Us Today? (2)

[Tu Es Petrus]

I would. Unless it coincides with what is naturally written on our hearts or codified into the NT, no part of the Mosaic law was ever for the gentiles.....

Well I agree, in part. But the Old Testament is STILL Sacred Scripture, and the moral truths which underly the Ten Commandements are important to Christians too.

.....I like Luther's sermon on this topic.

Can't go there.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I think my old Orthodox Priest said it best. All Scripture should be viewed as literal, allegorical, and symbolic at the same time. To narrow it down to only one of these is to do grave injustice to the depth of Scripture.

No its not. People like to take scripture and make it say things it does not say. You cannot look at every single thing in the bible as all three at the same time. Do you expect a literal dragon to rise up from the sea and start stamping ppl on their heads? Do you expect a literal woman called babylon to be fornicating with the kings of the world? I do not think you do. How then can we look at all of the scripture as all 3 at the same time? It wouldn't make sense. Sure a scripture can have more than one meaning or application. But God wants us be able to figure out the word. If everything has 3 meanings then i'm done trying to understand.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

No its not. People like to take scripture and make it say things it does not say. You cannot look at every single thing in the bible as all three at the same time. Do you expect a literal dragon to rise up from the sea and start stamping ppl on their heads? Do you expect a literal woman called babylon to be fornicating with the kings of the world?.....

.... and do you think there was a talking snake in a Garden?

HOO HAA. Hoist on your own petard!

 

[Doveaman]

Well, well, well. Somebody finally gets it! Reps for you!
Each covenant has its different regulations, and different groups of people were brought into different covenants. Saturday ceremonial observance is part of the 4th and 5th covenants (Mosaic and Davidic). We are not under those covenants, and we do not recognize those regulations. We are under the 6th covenant - Christ's covenant - and nowhere does the NT demand that Christians worship on Saturday.

Six covenants? I thought there were only two; the old and the new?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

.... and do you think there was a talking snake in a Garden?

HOO HAA. Hoist on your own petard!

There was a talking donkey. Was there not?

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Well, well, well. Somebody finally gets it! Reps for you!
Each covenant has its different regulations, and different groups of people were brought into different covenants. Saturday ceremonial observance is part of the 4th and 5th covenants (Mosaic and Davidic). We are not under those covenants, and we do not recognize those regulations. We are under the 6th covenant - Christ's covenant - and nowhere does the NT demand that Christians worship on Saturday.

Six covenants? I thought there were only two; the old and the new?

The Adamic Covenant, the Covenant with Adam
The Abrahamic Covenant, the Covenant with Abraham
The Nohamic Covenant, the Covenant with Noah
The Mosaic Covenant, the Covenant with Moses
The Davidic Covenant, the Covenant with David
The New Covenant, the Covenant Christ made

 

[Doveaman]

We keep the law because we love God, but we do not look to the law for salvation

So does this mean we can be saved without it?

 

[Doveaman]

The Adamic Covenant, the Covenant with Adam
The Abrahamic Covenant, the Covenant with Abraham
The Nohamic Covenant, the Covenant with Noah
The Mosaic Covenant, the Covenant with Moses
The Davidic Covenant, the Covenant with David
The New Covenant, the Covenant Christ made

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]The Mosaic Covenant, and perhaps in some way, the Davidic Covenant was based on the “Law”, but were not all the rest based on faith in Christ? That's still two; the old and the new.[/FONT]

 

[Stryder06]

No, those sins would not have been legal because Christ addressed all those issues in Matthew 5-7 (well, throughout the entire four gospels). The reason why we can't get rid of all the commandments was because Christ not only re-illliterated 9 out of the 10 commandments but He also added more to it.

For example: Matthew 5:21-48

Matthew 5:21-27
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Marriage Is Sacred and Binding

31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Not everything you listed are covered in these verses but they are there throughout the gospels.

Christ did not add to the commandments, He simply summurized(sp?) them. The reason why the sabbath was never mentioned during that time as a "Thou shalt keep the sabbath..." way is because they were already doing it. No need to tell them to do something they were alreay doing. Instead, Christ corrected them in the manner in which they were keeping the sabbath.

 

[Stryder06]

As I said you must understand and know what the law was all about and for whom the law was given before you try to put any man under the microscope of the law, For the law as not set for the people but as a sign against the people. So if you are going to place yourself as trying to live the law you are placing yourself to live the full of the law..The old covenant is the bond woman that has been cast out.. We are now under the free woman who is our mother.. The NC.

I don't want to be rude, and unfortunately typing has a very poor way of conveying one's tone so please keep this in mind...

Answer me this than, is it ok to break the law? If the law is not important why engrave it in stone? And to what standard do you hold those who are not yet Christs? Do you teach them the law of God and than once they convert tell them that it's ok to break it?

 

[Stryder06]

So does this mean we can be saved without it?

Not exactly sure I understand your question? If that is what you are asking, let me ask you this in turn, would we need salvation if the law did not exist?

 

[JimfromOhio]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]The Mosaic Covenant, and perhaps in some way, the Davidic Covenant was based on the “Law”, but were not all the rest based on faith in Christ? That's still two.[/FONT]

There are two Covenants which are Old and New Covenants.

However, within those two testaments, we saw the covenants that God made to us. Edenic Covenant, Noachical Covenant, Abrahamic Covenant, Sinaitic Covenant, Levitical Covenant, Davidic Covenant, and the New Covenant (New Testament).There are certain promises that were made to Israel and these don't apply to the Church and some to the Church that don't apply to Israel. In the end, when it is all over and we are in eternity, then God will bring us together, but in his dealings on earth God keeps the two separate.

One Covenant was made through Adam that never changed which is the "eternal gospel" and it saved Adam and Eve, and Moses, and David, and the Apostles, and you and I today, and that is always the gospel of grace through faith, and faith alone. In Genesis, God said 15.) "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Christ did not add to the commandments, He simply summurized(sp?) them. The reason why the sabbath was never mentioned during that time as a "Thou shalt keep the sabbath..." way is because they were already doing it. No need to tell them to do something they were alreay doing. Instead, Christ corrected them in the manner in which they were keeping the sabbath.

He wasn't summerizing them, He was adding to each of them making them a new commandment. I said in my earlier post the commandments of the Old laws are gone, we are under the commandments and teachings of Christ...yet He re-illiterate all but one of the 10 commandment. And if you continue to read Acts you know that the Christians were not meeting on the Sabbath (actually this is not true, they were meeting together daily but when it came to taking the communion and giving offering), they were coming together and breaking bread on the first day of the week.

 

[Stryder06]

He wasn't summerizing them, He was adding to each of them making them a new commandment. I said in my earlier post the commandments of the Old laws are gone, we are under the commandments and teachings of Christ...yet He re-illiterate all but one of the 10 commandment. And if you continue to read Acts you know that the Christians were not meeting on the Sabbath (actually this is not true, they were meeting together daily but when it came to taking the communion and giving offering), they were coming together and breaking bread on the first day of the week.

Reading Acts you see that the disciples went into the temple each sabbath to teach. Gathering together and breaking bread does not a holy day make. When Peter was freed from jail by the angel his friends were praying together for him. Was this day holy? They were gathered together and praying, so by that line of logic this would have to mean that this day, whichever day it was, was a holy day.

Christ is the God of the OT. "Before Abraham was I AM" He gave us the ten commandments. Christ is also Lord of the Sabbath. That day is His, but it was made for us. The law was not done away with. He did not add to it, rather, because of the way men were abusing the law for their own purposes, he restated them.

And again, Christ didn't restate the sabbath in reagards to them keeping it, but rather He instructed them on how to properly keep it.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Reading Acts you see that the disciples went into the temple each sabbath to teach. Gathering together and breaking bread does not a holy day make. When Peter was freed from jail by the angel his friends were praying together for him. Was this day holy? They were gathered together and praying, so by that line of logic this would have to mean that this day, whichever day it was, was a holy day.

Christ is the God of the OT. "Before Abraham was I AM" He gave us the ten commandments. Christ is also Lord of the Sabbath. That day is His, but it was made for us. The law was not done away with. He did not add to it, rather, because of the way men were abusing the law for their own purposes, he restated them.

And again, Christ didn't restate the sabbath in reagards to them keeping it, but rather He instructed them on how to properly keep it.

On the first day of every week.......(First Corinthians 16:2). It was on the first day of the week that Christ arose and so the first day, Sunday, came to be designated as the Lord's Day. On that day the early Christians gathered to worship (Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10) as do we, and in doing so we celebrate Christ's resurrection. Easter (The Resurrection) is celebrated every Sunday. The meaning of the resurrection must be rediscovered by each believing Christians till our Lord returns to earth again.

In the Old Testament, the sacrifices and offerings of blood of animals were ceremonial symbolism however the death of Jesus Christ replaced the weekly sacrifices with ONE sacrifice. When Jesus poured out His blood on Calvary, He guaranteed eternal redemption to all who would put our trust in Him. The manner in which the Jews under the old covenant sanctified the day involved types and symbols that pointed to the coming Redeemer.

After Christ, the ceremonial weekly traditions including Sabbath (Hebrews Chapters 8 through 10 have been removed. In my opinion that concerning the fourth commandment, those who judges others regarding Ceremonial Sabbath are extreme, and interpreted it too strictly.

The Sabbath is to be sanctified or set apart onto God as a day of rest from work, a day of cessation from the normal daily routine of the 7 days cycle regardless on man-made calendar (Sundays-Saturdays)(the Hebrew word for sabbath is clearly related to the Hebrew verb shabeth, which means to rest or cease). "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however,is found in Christ"(Colossians 2:15-17) basically means we are not to live in bondage to specific days and times and seasons (Romans 14:4-10; 2 Corinthians 3:5-18).

Sabbath basically means a pattern of six days of labor and one day of rest must be considered universal and perpetually binding upon mankind. In Romans 14:5-6: "One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it." In this passage, Paul allows for diversity in the church over the issue of Jewish holy days (i.e., the ceremonial sabbaths) because of the unique historical circumstances. When Jesus Christ died on the cross, the ceremonial aspects of the law (e.g., animal sacrifices, Jewish holy days, circumcision) were rendered obsolete and were abrogated.

The Sabbath was made a perpetual covenant and sign between Jehovah and the Jewish nation.

Jesus Christ who is our Lord and Savior have provided examples regarding First Day of the week. The central reason that Christians observe the first day of the week is the historical fact that Christ rose from the dead on that day (Mt. 28:1; Mk. 16:2, 9; Lk. 24:1; Jn. 20:1).

Christ chose to appear repeatedly to His disciples on the first day of the week (Mt. 28:9; Lk. 24:15-31, 36; Jn. 20:19, 26). This pattern of appearance is carefully noted in the Scriptures and is obviously not arbitrary.

Another example is that Jesus chose the first day of the week to strengthen the apostles' faith, instruct them in doctrine, issue commands, engage in fellowship, and partake in the breaking of bread.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Reading Acts you see that the disciples went into the temple each sabbath to teach. Gathering together and breaking bread does not a holy day make. When Peter was freed from jail by the angel his friends were praying together for him. Was this day holy? They were gathered together and praying, so by that line of logic this would have to mean that this day, whichever day it was, was a holy day.

Christ is the God of the OT. "Before Abraham was I AM" He gave us the ten commandments. Christ is also Lord of the Sabbath. That day is His, but it was made for us. The law was not done away with. He did not add to it, rather, because of the way men were abusing the law for their own purposes, he restated them.

And again, Christ didn't restate the sabbath in reagards to them keeping it, but rather He instructed them on how to properly keep it.

Acts 5:42
And daily in the temple, and in every house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.

DAILY they taught in every house and in the temple...but we only know of the first day of the week when they came together, took communion and gave offering. And before you say it (Yes, I wish I could be with my congregation DAILY but they don't offer it ).

And as for this runaround with the whole law thing...Galatians specifically says that the Old law was a tutor for us for the new covenant and that we are not under the old law.

 

[Stryder06]

On the first day of every week.......(First Corinthians 16:2). It was on the first day of the week that Christ arose and so the first day, Sunday, came to be designated as the Lord's Day. On that day the early Christians gathered to worship (Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10) as do we, and in doing so we celebrate Christ's resurrection. Easter (The Resurrection) is celebrated every Sunday. The meaning of the resurrection must be rediscovered by each believing Christians till our Lord returns to earth again.

That collection was to be done until Paul arrived. It was to keep him from having to go see everyone to get the money he needed for his trip. Once again, a collection of money does not a holy day make.

In the Old Testament, the sacrifices and offerings of blood of animals were ceremonial symbolism however the death of Jesus Christ replaced the weekly sacrifices with ONE sacrifice. When Jesus poured out His blood on Calvary, He guaranteed eternal redemption to all who would put our trust in Him. The manner in which the Jews under the old covenant sanctified the day involved types and symbols that pointed to the coming Redeemer.

No arguement here.

After Christ, the ceremonial weekly traditions including Sabbath (Hebrews Chapters 8 through 10 have been removed. In my opinion that concerning the fourth commandment, those who judges others regarding Ceremonial Sabbath are extreme, and interpreted it too strictly.

The sabbath wasn't a weekly tradition. The fourth commandment says to Remember, thus that must mean that at some point in time they had already been taught.

The Sabbath is to be sanctified or set apart onto God as a day of rest from work, a day of cessation from the normal daily routine of the 7 days cycle regardless on man-made calendar (Sundays-Saturdays)(the Hebrew word for sabbath is clearly related to the Hebrew verb shabeth, which means to rest or cease). "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however,is found in Christ"(Colossians 2:15-17) basically means we are not to live in bondage to specific days and times and seasons (Romans 14:4-10; 2 Corinthians 3:5-18).

The sabbath, was sanctified by God, thus only God would have the right to un-sanctify it. Pauls says for them to not judge because during that time, not everyone had the truth about the sabbath and new moon feasts and what not. He does not however make any statement in regards to not keeping the seventh day sabbath, but sunday, the first work day.

Sabbath basically means a pattern of six days of labor and one day of rest must be considered universal and perpetually binding upon mankind. In Romans 14:5-6: "One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it." In this passage, Paul allows for diversity in the church over the issue of Jewish holy days (i.e., the ceremonial sabbaths) because of the unique historical circumstances. When Jesus Christ died on the cross, the ceremonial aspects of the law (e.g., animal sacrifices, Jewish holy days, circumcision) were rendered obsolete and were abrogated.

Once again, no arguement here. However the seventh day sabbath of the 4th commandment was not a ceremonial sabbath.

The Sabbath was made a perpetual covenant and sign between Jehovah and the Jewish nation.

Between Jehovah and His people.

Jesus Christ who is our Lord and Savior have provided examples regarding First Day of the week. The central reason that Christians observe the first day of the week is the historical fact that Christ rose from the dead on that day (Mt. 28:1; Mk. 16:2, 9; Lk. 24:1; Jn. 20:1).

Christ chose to appear repeatedly to His disciples on the first day of the week (Mt. 28:9; Lk. 24:15-31, 36; Jn. 20:19, 26). This pattern of appearance is carefully noted in the Scriptures and is obviously not arbitrary.

Another example is that Jesus chose the first day of the week to strengthen the apostles' faith, instruct them in doctrine, issue commands, engage in fellowship, and partake in the breaking of bread.

Once again gathering together does not a holy day make. I would think it safe to assume that having just lost Christ and than fearing for their lives, it would not have been uncommon for them to have spent alot of their time together. And those scriptures where Christ meet with the disciples says nothing about it being the first day of the week. Do you think it possible that the reason why Christ rose on sunday was out of respect for the sabbath?

The bible specifically says to keep the sabbath day holy. Where does that ever change?

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Jesus Christ who is our Lord and Savior have provided examples regarding First Day of the week. The central reason that Christians observe the first day of the week is the historical fact that Christ rose from the dead on that day (Mt. 28:1; Mk. 16:2, 9; Lk. 24:1; Jn. 20:1).

Christ chose to appear repeatedly to His disciples on the first day of the week (Mt. 28:9; Lk. 24:15-31, 36; Jn. 20:19, 26). This pattern of appearance is carefully noted in the Scriptures and is obviously not arbitrary.

Once again gathering together does not a holy day make. I would think it safe to assume that having just lost Christ and than fearing for their lives, it would not have been uncommon for them to have spent alot of their time together. And those scriptures where Christ meet with the disciples says nothing about it being the first day of the week. Do you think it possible that the reason why Christ rose on sunday was out of respect for the sabbath?

Those specific verses doesn't say that it was the "first day of the week" but the verses that go before them does indeed say "first day of the week" the one in Matthew 28:1 says "now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn..."

And I believe Jesus rose on Sunday because it was three day from the time He was crucified, and therefore He fulfilled that prophecy.

 

[Doveaman]

Not exactly sure I understand your question? If that is what you are asking, let me ask you this in turn, would we need salvation if the law did not exist?

Yes we would. Adam did not have "the law". He had 'a law', but not "the law" given to Israel.
Adam's 'law' was "thou shalt not eat the fruit-ith". He broke this law and fell into sin because of it, resulting in his need for salvation.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Yes we would. Adam did not have "the law". He had 'a law', but not "the law" given to Israel.
Adam's 'law' was "thou shalt not eat the fruit-ith". He broke this law and fell into sin because of it, resulting in his need for salvation.

Sounds about right to me.