YES or NO: Do The 10 Commandments Still Apply To Us Today? (2)

[squint]

[FONT=&quot]Where?[/FONT]
It is important, but not everything in it is applicable today, the Ten Commandments included.
The Spirit and Intent of the law existed loooooonng before the ten commandments was introduced.
If anything, a change came when the ten commandments was introduced. Now that the ten commandments no longer exists for the Christian, things can now return as it originally was a loooooonng time ago.
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear...Heb 8:13.
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two (Jews and Gentiles) one...by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations...Eph 2:14-15.

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant- — not of the letter (of Ten Commandments) but of the Spirit (of Christ); for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory...will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?...2 Cor 3:6-8.

Sounds like a whole lot of change to me.

You may note the term SOON? That means NOT YET...and certainly NOT as you have been arguing for.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Doveaman]

You may note the term SOON? That means NOT YET...and certainly NOT as you have been arguing for.

At the time that Paul spoke those words they were many who were still blindly relying on the first covenant even though the second covenant was fully established at the cross.

Paul was simply stating that that blindness will soon go away and all will eventually see the true light as the true gospel continue to spread.

Unfortunately, that blindness is taking mush longer for some people than Paul perhaps expected.

Both Covenants do not exist at the same time, squint. The first covenant was completely abolished at the cross by the time Paul spoke those words.

We are now under a New Covenant ever since the cross.

 

[squint]

At the time that Paul spoke those words they were many who were still blindly relying on the first covenant even though the second covenant was fully established at the cross.

Paul certainly didn't cast away the Law. Only the opposite. Paul termed the Law holy, righteous, spiritual, applicable to shut up every mouth, make the whole world guilty before God and good if used properly. Very far from tossing it aside.

Paul was simply stating that that blindness will soon go away and all will eventually see the true light as the true gospel continue to spread.

No way was Paul throwing away the Law. Jesus also said that heaven and earth will pass away before one jot or tittle of the Law passes away. Paul would NEVER have taught against Jesus and IF that happened (it didn't) Paul would be wrong and Jesus would be right.

Unfortunately, that blindness is taking mush longer for some people than Paul perhaps expected.

You might read my post #838 in this thread to see 'why' the Law is NOT going away and IS fully applicable just as Paul and all the Apostles taught. Paul has a more sophisticated understanding that 'many' twist to be against the Law when that is so much NOT the case whatsoever.

Both Covenants do not exist at the same time, squint.

There is no 'variation' between the Covenants. They work different things to different entities. The same Law that is 'for' Gods children is 'against' the DEVIL. The Covenant didn't change. The 'understanding' of 'how it works' came by Jesus Christ and was elaborated upon by the Apostles.

If anything Jesus actually AMPLIFIED the Law well past it's (falsely presumed) Old Testament intentions. The 'Covenant' is NEW because we see it differently, that's ALL. The fleshly understanding of the Law was replaced with a SPIRITUAL understanding from the Holy Spirit.

That's the NEW part. The same Law of the Old Testament to love our neighbors as ourselves has NOT CHANGED one whit under the New Covenant. Nope. Same exact requirement to the dot and FULLY AFFIRMED by Paul, John, James and Peter among others.

The first covenant was complete abolished at the cross by the time Paul spoke those words.

And that would only be your patently FALSE VIEW of Pauls words that resembles a very skewed view of Paul and little of what Paul really taught or said about these matters.

We are now under a New Covenant ever since the cross.

Your view is unfortunately a common one that is sold in the pews. I consider it largely uninformed and one sided for 'many' reasons.

Gods Words are not as easily tossed aside as you have been led to suppose.

enjoy!

squint

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

We are now under a New Covenant ever since the cross.

I sure hope so.........

 

[Doveaman]

Galatians 3:12
And the law is not of faith

This tells me that obedience to 'the law' has nothing to do with the faith we Christians live by.

Christian faith does not lead to obedience to "the law'.

Mark 4:15

And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

What about they who received the 'word' on 'stony places', 'among thorns' and on 'good ground'?

 

[squint]

I sure hope so.........

Those who use either the Old Covenant or the New Covenant to condemn their neighbors are themselves condemned already.

How anyone could read Paul in Romans 2 and come away with the conclusion that the LAW has passed is beyond me (well, not really but)

Romans 2


1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law


There is NO ROOM at the 'Wiggle Inn.'

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

This tells me that obedience to 'the law' has nothing to do with the faith we Christians live by.

IF that is all you came away from that post with you missed the bulk of 'why' THE LAW is fully in force and FULLY applicable to this exact second.

Christian faith does not lead to obedience to "the law'.
What about they who received the 'word' on 'stony places', 'among thorns' and on 'good ground'?

NO one, I repeat NO ONE understands IN FULL.

That means ALL of us have been stolen from. Do you understand this FACT?

Do you really understand that the REASON that the LAW has not passed away is 'because' it stands WRITTEN against the DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS...? It is THEM who are the LAWLESS and they are WITH mankind.

And 'these' are WITH mankind, and PRIMARILY in believers because it is IN THEM that The Word is sown.

And guess what they end up doing? They end up submitting people to be burned alive forever. And now you may also know who I THINK does that action IN THEM and makes the 'slave' into a genuinely hateful LAWBREAKER?

Sound familiar?

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

THE LAW allows me to look at, oh, let's say CHARLES MANSON or ADOLF HITLER and LOVE THEM...

And that same LAW tells me that these MEN had THE DEVIL in their hearts who ENSLAVED them to KILL our fellow man.

Don't you 'believers' understand these scriptural principles? Seriously?

Charles Manson and Adolf Hitler had ONE THING in common.

THE DEVIL was (and still is in Manson's case) IN THEIR HEARTS AND HEADS.

You see it is entirely possible under THE LAW to LOVE them both and ABIDE in ETERNAL JUDGMENT against that working of EVIL in them.

The Law then is our ally in these matters.

It stands AGAINST the 'lawless' ones...

And it is FOR us...in our behalves. ALL of it. Yes, even the CEREMONIAL LAW is 'in our behalves.'

The Law is SPIRITUAL and the LAW, the WORD of God is AGAINST THE ANTI-CHRIST SPIRITS.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Doveaman]

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law

I often wonder why a man who believes in universal salvation would quote scriptures that speaks of men being condemned by God's wrath.

 

[Harry3142]

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:5-13,NIV)

 

[spiritwarrior37]

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it. The law has been fulfilled. We are no longer in any way under the law, we are under grace. The law kills, geace saves. When as what is the greatest commandment Jesus said love the Lord God with all your heart soul mind and body and love thy neighbor as thyself. Those are our two commandments to live by.

 

[Doveaman]

IF that is all you came away from that post with you missed the bulk of 'why' THE LAW is fully in force and FULLY applicable to this exact second.

I understand your posts quite well, squint, and I figured you know I don’t agree with most of them. But they do make for very interesting reading.

Maybe if I come to know someone else who believes the way you do, your posts might be more persuasive, but I don’t know anyone else who believe like you do.

Do you know anyone who believes what you believe?

Do you know anyone who knows anyone who believes what you believe?


Do you remember this question:

“What about they who received the 'word' on 'stony places', 'among thorns' and on 'good ground'?”

I asked this question earlier because I find that you often quote the ‘word’ that fell on the ‘wayside’ while ignoring that same ‘word’ that fell in these other places.

You seem to be picking out scriptures that fit your theory while ignoring those that do not fit. So I was just wondering why.

Do you really understand that the REASON that the LAW has not passed away...?

This is my position on law:

God’s law is eternal, even as God Himself is eternal.

God’s law existed loooooonng before creation was made, and loooooonng before the Ten Commandments was introduced to man.

I believe God lives by His own eternal law, and not by the one He made for man; the Ten Commandments.

The law is...made...for the lawless...1 Tim 1:9.

The Sabbath was made for man...Mark 2:27.

I do not believe that the Ten Commandments is God’s eternal law. God does not live by the Ten Commandments which He made for man. God lives by His own eternal law.

My arguments are not against God’s eternal law. It is against the Ten Commandments being required of Christians. I do not believe these commands are for a righteous man, as is quoted above.

God’s eternal law is a Living Spirit. The Ten Commandments is a written letter. Some people try to rewrite this letter in their hearts and call it the Spirit of the law, but it is not.

The Spirit of the law is a Living Spirit and not a written letter. Even if this letter was written on our hearts it is still a written letter. The Ten Commandments is a written letter, not Living Spirit.

God’s eternal law is a Living Spirit. God lives by His own Living Spirit, not by a written letter. This is how it always was for God from eternity to eternity.

Christians are called to live by this same eternal law God Himself lives by, the Spirit of the law.

The Ten Commandments are Old Covenant and now obsolete. We Christians are ministers of a New Covenant.

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant- — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory...will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!...2 Cor 3:6-9.

Why would I want anything to do with a letter that kills and brings death and condemns men?

I DO NOT.

 

[squint]

I understand your posts quite well, squint, and I figured you know I don’t agree with most of them. But they do make for very interesting reading.

That's the beauty of it. Whether you agree or not the facts are not changing.

Maybe if I come to know someone else who believes the way you do, your posts might be more persuasive, but I don’t know anyone else who believe like you do.

Argumentum ad populous or argumentum ad numerum are very poor methodologies.

Do you know anyone who believes what you believe?

What petty schoolboy debate tactics have to do with this conversation I do not know nor do I desire to engage such ignorance. IF a fact is a fact 10 billion people in disagreement with a single fact will not change it.

Do you know anyone who knows anyone who believes what you believe?

Yes. A 'few.' People who actually do love their neighbors as themselves within christianity are unfortunately somewhat rare.

Do you remember this question:

“What about they who received the 'word' on 'stony places', 'among thorns' and on 'good ground'?”

Do you remember the response of scripture? We all have been stolen from. IF you think you are an exception you are in fact one of 'the deceived.'

I asked this question earlier because I find that you often quote the ‘word’ that fell on the ‘wayside’ while ignoring that same ‘word’ that fell in these other places.

There is a funny little thing that happens when any believer reads scripture. They nearly ALL believe that 'they' are justified and all the bad scriptures belong to some other person. Interesting how that works isn't it?

You seem to be picking out scriptures that fit your theory while ignoring those that do not fit. So I was just wondering why.

Well, there is scripture and THEN there is what is bouncing around in your own head that you haven't managed to write down yet to have specifics on the table for discussion. You also realize that those who practice making accusations without specifics are in fact liars? Did you say you were a christian of some sort?

This is my position on law:

God’s law is eternal, even as God Himself is eternal.

Oh, you mean Gods Laws are not obsolete and inapplicable to YOU? I must have not understood all your prior posts that were trying to eradicate that same Law.

God’s law existed loooooonng before creation was made, and loooooonng before the Ten Commandments was introduced to man.

Indeed. The Word of God is eternal in nature.

I believe God lives by His own eternal law, and not by the one He made for man; the Ten Commandments.

The law is...made...for the lawless...1 Tim 1:9.

The Sabbath was made for man...Mark 2:27.

Not really sure what point you are trying to make. We both know that the Law was added because God found fault with the people.

I do not believe that the Ten Commandments is God’s eternal law. God does not live by the Ten Commandments which He made for man. God lives by His own eternal law.

And you thrive on your own imaginations. If you think Gods Word is somehow against Himself you would be sadly mistaken.

My arguments are not against God’s eternal law. It is against the Ten Commandments being required of Christians. I do not believe these commands are for a righteous man, as is quoted above.

You certainly are not against the Law are you? You do love God? You do agree that you should not murder your neighbors? If so you are in fact FOR or in behalf of the Law.

God’s eternal law is a Living Spirit. The Ten Commandments is a written letter. Some people try to rewrite this letter in their hearts and call it the Spirit of the law, but it is not.

Many an ignorant theologian try to pit the SPIRIT to be against the WORD. Such methodologies are vain. Gods Spirit is NOT against TRUTH, LOVE, LIGHT, LIFE, WORD etc etc. These are ALL in Perfect Accord. Now go read what you just said.

The 'letter' is meant to KILL and KILL it does and KILL it will.

The Spirit of the law is a Living Spirit and not a written letter. Even if this letter was written on our hearts it is still a written letter. The Ten Commandments is a written letter, not Living Spirit.

What you are proposing is that the little voice in yer head is somehow superior to The Word. Here's news for ya. That is NOT spirit or truth.

God’s eternal law is a Living Spirit. God lives by His own Living Spirit, not by a written letter. This is how it always was for God from eternity to eternity.

Trying to erect some barrier between Gods Word and Gods Spirit is totally ignorant. Sorry. Think for a moment before you speak please.

Christians are called to live by this same eternal law God Himself lives by, the Spirit of the law.

Well, personally I think believers who claim they follow the so called spirit whilst simultaneously condemning our fellow man to be burned alive forever are captives of condemned lawbreakers.

The Ten Commandments are Old Covenant and now obsolete. We Christians are ministers of a New Covenant.

Which same you just happen to agree with anyway.

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant- — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Well, let's see. The Letter Kills and you promote the killing of nearly everyone else who does not believe 'like you.' Ah, I think I see your picture very clearly.

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory...will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!...2 Cor 3:6-9.

I've often said if you think your sin is getting off the hook in the name of Grace you are sadly mistaken.

Why would I want anything to do with a letter that kills and brings death and condemns men?

I DO NOT.

Of course not. You concede that the instant you touch the Law you are proven to be 'the lawless.' That is why so called believers flee the Law. The facts that it shows are instantaneous.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

I often wonder why a man who believes in universal salvation would quote scriptures that speaks of men being condemned by God's wrath.

The term 'men' is also applicable to the DEVIL.

Isaiah 14:16

You also understand that you are in fact proven to be 'lawless' by the Law you decry? And that 'shows' that THE LAW is written against YOU? It is after all for the lawless.

 

[Doveaman]

Oh, you mean Gods Laws are not obsolete and inapplicable to YOU? I must have not understood all your prior posts that were trying to eradicate that same Law.

Yes, you misunderstood my posts.

That usually happens when one does not make a distinction between the letter of the law and the Spirit of the law and decides to lump them both together even though scripture does not.

This leads to much confusion as is the case with you.

The Jews had this same problem when they stood in the presence of the Spirit of the law and did not recognize Him. Their heads were buried too deep in Torah.

Indeed. The Word of God is eternal in nature.

Yes indeed, and that Word is the Spirit of God's eternal law, not the letter.

 

[visionary]

Yes, you misunderstood my posts.

That usually happens when one does not make a distinction between the letter of the law and the Spirit of the law and decides to lump them both together even though scripture does not.

This leads to much confusion as is the case with you.

The Jews had this same problem when they stood in the presence of the Spirit of the law and did not recognize Him. Their heads were buried to deep in Torah.
Yes indeed, and that Word is the Spirit of God's eternal law, not the letter.

Youare right, but at the same time don't swing the pendulum so far the other way, that you can not be like Yeshua who was buried deep in Torah and can stand in the Presence of the spirit of the Law and recognise it.

 

[Doveaman]

The term 'men' is also applicable to the DEVIL.

The term 'men' is also applicable to MEN.

Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all (men) who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out — those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned...John 5:28-29.

 

[Doveaman]

You are right, but at the same time don't swing the pendulum so far the other way, that you can not be like Yeshua who was buried deep in Torah and can stand in the Presence of the spirit of the Law and recognise it.

Yeshua was buried in Torah because He, being a Jew, was born under Torah.

But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law...Gal 4:4.

But at the cross He became dead to it.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations...Eph 2:14-15.

We also are dead to it.

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God...Gal 2:19.

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ...Rom 7:4.

 

[RND]

Yeshua was buried in Torah because He, being a Jew, was born under Torah.

But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law...Gal 4:4.

The mitsvah.

But at the cross He became dead to it.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations...Eph 2:14-15.

The "law" is what "condemned" Him.

We also are dead to it.

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God...Gal 2:19.

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ...Rom 7:4.

Not without the Holy Spirit.

"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot."

 

[visionary]

Yeshua was buried in Torah because He, being a Jew, was born under Torah.

But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law...Gal 4:4.

But at the cross He became dead to it.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations...Eph 2:14-15.

We also are dead to it.

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God...Gal 2:19.

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ...Rom 7:4.

You know, when a barrier is broken down, when the dividing wall comes down, it is like east meeting west. There is a joyful reunion of the two. You are to see both now.