YES or NO: Do The 10 Commandments Still Apply To Us Today? (2)

[Stryder06]

Are the SDAs and those who keep the Sabbath the ones that are “truly convicted” and the rest of us Christians who don’t keep it the ones "who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof."?

Didn't I just say that only God knows the heart. This applies to both those who do and do not keep the sabbath. Some keep the sabbath but have a form of godliness while denying the power thereof, while others that don't keep the sabbath will hear the Lord tell them "Well done, thou good and faithful servant". Eventually all will make the choice to follow God's law or to follow the laws of man. At that point the inward conviction will display an outward change and all of God's children will stand together.

I have no such notion. But one thing I know for sure, the “few” are those who live by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by a law of Ten Commandments.

Right and wrong on this, for those who love God keep His commandments. There's no getting around that.

Answer me this:

Is obedience to the Ten Commandment law righteous behavior?


If obedience to the Ten Commandment law is not righteous behavior then why on earth are we Christians wasting time with it? I am sure we can find something better to do.

By righteous behaviour do you mean is it the right thing to do? If so than yes.

Answer me this, how do you think God feels when His children tell Him that they think they can do just fine without His law?

 

[Doveaman]

The "laws of Moses" were a witness against the Covenant that the COI agreed to perform.

"If you do this, then I'll do this and this won't happen...."

I don't see that in scriptures.

Jesus' sacrifice is now a "witness." A witness against the Covenant that the COI agreed to perform."

I don't see that in scriptures, either.

Sin "still" kills. The "wages" (what we earn) of sin........is? What? Death. What the sacrifice of a "physical" lamb couldn't do Christ accomplished.

The wages of sin is death, but the death occurs through the law.

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death...Rom 7:9-11.

Apart from law, we are not held accountable for our sins.

Where there is no law there is no transgression...sin is not taken into account when there is no law...For apart from law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law”...Rom 4:15, 5:13, 7:8-9.

Apart from law sin has no power to kill -[FONT=&quot] "[/FONT]For apart from law, sin is dead" - apart from law sin is powerless to kill. And, therefore [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]sin is not taken into account when there is no law". It is not held against us. There is only grace through faith in Christ.

For those under grace there is no law.

Right. Where are those "Ten Commandments" written now?

For the Christian, nowhere. They are now obsolete to the righteous man. They only apply to the lawless.

The law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless...[FONT=&quot]1 Tim 1:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot].
[/FONT]

Is it possible to ask 'Chuck' anything?

Some people think it is.

 

[Stryder06]

For the Christian, nowhere. There are now obsolete to the righteous man. They only apply to the lawless.

So by your understanding, once you become christian you can't sin?

 

[RND]

I don't see that in scriptures.

Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

I don't see that in scriptures, either.

Think about it. If Jesus' sacrifice replaced the book of the law, the sacrifices et al, as your posts suggests did His sacrifice not act as a witness against those that claim to do His will?

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

For those Under grace there is no law.

And yet the "die" as a result of their sins.

For the Christian, nowhere. There are now obsolete to the righteous man. They only apply to the lawless.

On the heart brother...on the heart.

The law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless...[FONT="]1 Tim 1:9[/FONT][FONT="].[/FONT]

Only a man subject to the will of the Spirit" can "keep" the law.

Romans 8:7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will.
[FONT="]
[/FONT]

Some people think it is.

Some people are wrong.

 

[Doveaman]

Didn't I just say that only God knows the heart. This applies to both those who do and do not keep the sabbath. Some keep the sabbath but have a form of godliness while denying the power thereof, while others that don't keep the sabbath will hear the Lord tell them "Well done, thou good and faithful servant". Eventually all will make the choice to follow God's law or to follow the laws of man. At that point the inward conviction will display an outward change and all of God's children will stand together.

So, is it okay to break the fourth commandment and still hear "Well done, thou good and faithful servant"?

Isn't breaking one breaking all?

Right and wrong on this, for those who love God keep His commandments. There's no getting around that.

Commandments for Christians doesn't mean the 'Ten'.

Are you of the view that every time you see the term 'commandments' in scriptures it is referring to the 'Ten'?

If you are, isn't that an unproven assumption?

By righteous behaviour do you mean is it the right thing to do? If so than yes.

This would mean, then, that not keeping the fourth commandment Sabbath in the wrong thing to do, won't you say?

Answer me this, how do you think God feels when His children tell Him that they think they can do just fine without His law?

God children don't tell Him that. God's children obey His true law, not an obsolete one.

There is the letter of the law, and there is the Spirit of the law.

We obey the Spirit, not the letter.

 

[Doveaman]

So by your understanding, once you become christian you can't sin?

For a Christian, sin is the transgression of the Spirit of the law, not of the letter of the law.

We sin by disobeying the Spirit, not the letter.

The letter is for lawless men.

The law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless...1 Tim 1:9.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
The Spirit is for righteous men.

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son...in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who...live according to the...Spirit...Rom 8:3-4.

 

[Stryder06]

So, is it okay to break the fourth commandment and still hear "Well done, thou good and faithful servant"?

Isn't breaking one breaking all?
Commandments for Christians doesn't mean the 'Ten'.

Not willingly no. There is a difference between doing and not knowing, and doing while knowing. Would you say a person that who lives a life of adultrey and calls themself a christian will hear the Lord tell them Well done?

Are you of the view that every time you see the term 'commandments' in scriptures it is referring to the 'Ten'?

If you are, isn't that an unproven assumption?

I'm from the camp of understanding scripture in it's proper context. Line upon line, precept upon precept. When commandment is talking about the ten it's talking about the ten, if it's talking about something else than that's what it is.

This would mean, then, that not keeping the fourth commandment Sabbath in the wrong thing to do, won't you say?{/quote]Exactly

God children don't tell Him that. God's children obey His true law, not an obsolete one.

The law of Moses is obsolete, not the law of God. If it were than there would no longer be sin.

There is the letter of the law, and there is the Spirit of the law.
We obey the Spirit, not the letter.

I don't remember the bible teaching us that. I believe that the spirit of the law is the same as the letter of the law, because God's message never changes, no matter how man tries to spin it around.

 

[Stryder06]

For a Christian, sin is the transgression of the Spirit of the law, not of the letter of the law.

We sin by disobeying the Spirit, not the letter.

The letter is for lawless men.

The law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless...1 Tim 1:9.

The Spirit is for righteous men.

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son...in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who...live according to the...Spirit...Rom 8:3-4.

So what's the difference between the spirit and letter of the law? And what does it matter anyway. Either the law passed away or it didn't.

 

[squint]

So than what you are saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that there will not be any human being that will be lost to the fires of hell, rather only the devil and His angels?

The same 'Law' you think your following when condemning your neighbors is the same LAW that brings SATAN into the heart to STEAL what the LAW tells us to do:

LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS.

Many of you have turned the LAW upside down. The Law to you is self justification and condemnation of others masked as a 'warning.'

Mankind is not alone in matters of Law. Jesus told us in advance 'what really happens' where THE WORD is sown:


Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

If you expect the DEVIL to 'obey' the Law you would be sorely mistaken.

If you think NONE OF THE ABOVE happened to YOU you have already been CONNED, SCAMMED and BLINDED to the FACTS.

And you didn't even see it comin' didja?

enjoy!

squint

 

[Stryder06]

The same 'Law' you think your following when condemning your neighbors is the same LAW that brings SATAN into the heart to STEAL what the LAW tells us to do:

LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS.

Many of you have turned the LAW upside down. The Law to you is self justification and condemnation of others masked as a 'warning.'

Mankind is not alone in matters of Law. Jesus told us in advance 'what really happens' where THE WORD is sown:


Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

If you expect the DEVIL to 'obey' the Law you would be sorely mistaken.

If you think NONE OF THE ABOVE happened to YOU you have already been CONNED, SCAMMED and BLINDED to the FACTS.

And you didn't even see it comin' didja?

enjoy!

squint

Ok I'm not exactly sure how any of that applies to the question I asked you. And I'm sorry but if thinking that the word of God hasn't been taken from me means that I've been conned scammed and blinded, than I guess that's how i'll be.

 

[squint]

Ok I'm not exactly sure how any of that applies to the question I asked you.

Didja miss the 3 scriptures cited that showed WHO ELSE is involved in these matters?

So where is 'your accounting' for these facts in your understandings?

And I'm sorry but if thinking that the word of God hasn't been taken from me means that I've been conned scammed and blinded, than I guess that's how i'll be.

Look, we KNOW that to love our neighbors as 'ourselves' fulfills ALL the requirements of the LAW.

Now LOOK at what happened to it in YOUR hands.

You justify yourself for Saturday worship and you POTENTIALLY CONDEMN those who do not and you totally BLEW loving them as yourself, preferring POTENTIAL CONDEMNATION.

That to me would be a violation of the same Law you seek to uphold.

There is no beef with Saturday worship, but that does NOT give you or anyone else license to POTENTIALLY CONDEMN other 'believers.'

And for the record, yes, Jesus Is The Saviour of ALL MANKIND (1 Tim. 4:10) and the condemner of ALL DEVILS. These two positions were clearly shown to be OVERLAPPED in the flesh and minds of mankind. Two separate vessels. Two separate entities in ONE FLESH.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Stryder06]

Didja miss the 3 scriptures cited that showed WHO ELSE is involved in these matters?

So where is 'your accounting' for these facts in your understandings?



Look, we KNOW that to love our neighbors as 'ourselves' fulfills ALL the requirements of the LAW.

Now LOOK at what happened to it in YOUR hands.

You justify yourself for Saturday worship and you POTENTIALLY CONDEMN those who do not and you totally BLEW loving them as yourself, preferring POTENTIAL CONDEMNATION.

That to me would be a violation of the same Law you seek to uphold.

There is no beef with Saturday worship, but that does NOT give you or anyone else license to POTENTIALLY CONDEMN other 'believers.'

And for the record, yes, Jesus Is The Saviour of ALL MANKIND (1 Tim. 4:10) and the condemner of ALL DEVILS. These two positions were clearly shown to be OVERLAPPED in the flesh and minds of mankind. Two separate vessels. Two separate entities in ONE FLESH.

enjoy!

squint

I asked you whether or not you believed that the only ones that would burn in hell were the devil and his angels. You in turn responded with three verses that Christ used to teach a lesson about those who learn the word of God but are not rooted and grounded in it and thus loose that which they have.

I do love my neighbor as myself. I also love my Lord and obey His commandments as He asked me to. I am not condeming anyone rather I am telling you what God has told you. Does that mean that He does not love you? James says that to break one commandment makes you guilty of breaking them all.

I am in no wise saying that I am justified and guaranteed salvation because I keep the sabbath. I am saved the same way everyone else is, by grace through faith. This grace however does not entitle me or anyone else for that matter to break the commandments of God willingly. The Holy Spirit convicts. God knows the heart. I'm only doing that which I know to be right, spreading the truth to a world that is in darkness.

Here is the patience of the saints...those that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Now if you would answer my question. Will only the devil and his angels burn in hell while all humans will somehow be forgiven, including those who have denied Christ?

 

[Secundulus]

This grace however does not entitle me or anyone else for that matter to break the commandments of God willingly. The Holy Spirit convicts. God knows the heart. I'm only doing that which I know to be right, spreading the truth to a world that is in darkness.

This brings up an interesting thought to me.

I agree that if one willingly breaks God's commandments then he is in a state of sin that needs repentance in order to avoid condemnation.

But what about those who are fully convinced that the Scripture, particularly Paul, redefines this commandment so that the observance of the Sabbath, as a Jew, is no longer necessary?

What if the Church itself is convinced of the same?

Can they be said to be willingly disregarding God if they read Paul's writings and innocently derive God's desire from that?

Can one who is faithfully following the NT scripture be called an Anti-Christ?

Assume for the sake of this post that they are faithfully following what they read in the scripture.

 

[Stryder06]

This brings up an interesting thought to me.

I agree that if one willingly breaks God's commandments then he is in a state of sin that needs repentance in order to avoid condemnation.

But what about those who are fully convinced that the Scripture, particularly Paul, redefines this commandment so that the observance of the Sabbath, as a Jew, is no longer necessary?

What if the Church itself is convinced of the same?

Can they be said to be willingly disregarding God if they read Paul's writings and innocently derive God's desire from that?

Can one who is faithfully following the NT scripture be called an Anti-Christ?

Assume for the sake of this post that they are faithfully following what they read in the scripture.

This is where God comes in. He knows the heart. To those who do His will to the best of their ability, and to the amount of light given to them, God judges them based on that.

There are people who I believe will be in heaven that will not have celebrated on the sabbath until they celebrate it there.

Once again God knows the heart of those who call themselves His. And to these individuals God judges them according to their light. There are people who keep the sabbath that will hear the words "Depart for I never knew thee."

It's about our heart and the knowledge that God has given us and what we do with it. Are we willing to submit fully to the will of God, or will we cling to the laws of men and false doctrines of devils? These are the questions that one should ask themself. God requires all because He gave His all. Our complete obedience is what Christ asks for us and I'm sure none of us will disagree that giving Him just that is more than fair.

 

[Secundulus]

It's about our heart and the knowledge that God has given us and what we do with it. Are we willing to submit fully to the will of God, or will we cling to the laws of men and false doctrines of devils? These are the questions that one should ask themself. God requires all because He gave His all. Our complete obedience is what Christ asks for us and I'm sure none of us will disagree that giving Him just that is more than fair.

I have to agree with everything you said here. We simply disagree on what are the laws of men and what Paul told us.

One Caveat that I think you will agree with: Without faith (first) it is impossible to please God.

 

[Doveaman]

Not willingly no. There is a difference between doing and not knowing, and doing while knowing. Would you say a person that who lives a life of adultrey and calls themself a christian will hear the Lord tell them Well done?

So, then, if I break the Sabbath unwillingly I'll be fine, but if I break it willingly I'll be held accountable.

What if I do not believe in a seventh-day Sabbath and break it, am I breaking it willingly?

I'm from the camp of understanding scripture in it's proper context. Line upon line, precept upon precept. When commandment is talking about the ten it's talking about the ten, if it's talking about something else than that's what it is.

A man of great boast.

I think you need a new camp, because your scriptural understanding is not that "proper". I think you have your lines and precepts all mix up.

And you didn't answer my question.

Are you of the view that every time you see the term 'commandments' in scriptures it is referring to the 'Ten'?

The law of Moses is obsolete, not the law of God. If it were than there would no longer be sin.

Moses did not make any laws.

All laws were given to Moses by God, including animal sacrifice.

They are called the law of Moses because God gave them to the people through Moses, even as the law of Christ is God’s law given to us through Christ.

Every law God gave through Moses is call the law of Moses, but they do not belong to Moses, they all belong to God, they are all God’s laws because He commanded them or wrote them, even the law regarding how human feces were to be disposed.

God commanded or wrote them for the people and Moses passed them on to the people in written form, including the Ten Commandments. This is why they are called the law of Moses, because God gave them to the people through Moses.

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ...John 1:17.

The law is not 'grace and truth'. The law is not even 'truth'. 'Truth' came through Christ, not through Moses. We would do well to stick with the 'truth' given through Christ, and not the 'law' given through Moses.

I don't remember the bible teaching us that. I believe that the spirit of the law is the same as the letter of the law, because God's message never changes, no matter how man tries to spin it around.

There is a difference.

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant- — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory...will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?...2 Cor 3:6-8.

The letter of the law is the law of Ten Commandment written on stone.

The Spirit of the law is the living Christ who wrote the letter.

The Spirit of the law then commanded Moses to give the letter as a law to Israel.

Israel lived according to this letter of the law.

Christians live according to the Spirit of the Law.

Israel obeyed the law in the form of a letter.

Christians obey Christ in the form of a Spirit.

The letter of the law is written words.

The Spirit of the law is a living being.

 

[RND]

The letter of the law is the law of Ten Commandment written by Moses on stone.

God. With His finger.

Exd 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

 

[Secundulus]

God. With His finger.

Exd 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Oh my, you are sounding like a Roman Catholic here. LOL

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2

 

[Doveaman]

God. With His finger.

Exd 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Correct. But those ones were broken up.

My point, though, is that the letter of the law is the written law given to Israel, weather written by God or by Moses.

Christians do not live by this letter.

 

[RND]

Oh my, you are sounding like a Roman Catholic here. LOL

Gee, I thought I was simply sounding like a regular Christian.

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2

Which Ten? The Bible Ten or the Catechism Ten?

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments

A day of grace and rest from work

2184 Just as God "rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done,"121 human life has a rhythm of work and rest. The institution of the Lord's Day helps everyone enjoy adequate rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives.122


2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.123 Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health.

The charity of truth seeks holy leisure- the necessity of charity accepts just work.124 2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.



2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.



2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."125


IN BRIEF

2189 "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Deut 5:12). "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord" (Ex 31:15).
2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.
2191 The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106).
2192 "Sunday . . . is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church" (CIC, can. 1246 § 1). "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass" (CIC, can. 1247).
2193 "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound . . . to abstain from those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's Day, or the proper relaxation of mind and body" (CIC, can. 1247).
2194 The institution of Sunday helps all "to be allowed sufficient rest and leisure to cultivate their amilial, cultural, social, and religious lives" (GS 67 § 3).
2195 Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day.