YES or NO: Do The 10 Commandments Still Apply To Us Today? (2)

mpossoff said:

Because it wasn't the Torah that was faulty, it's us that are faulty on our own effort.

Do you or do you not have a Torah observant Christ living within you?

Marc

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No, Jesus the PERFECT Jew died. He KEPT TORAH.

Jesus the GOD and Savior of ALL mankind does.

That would be like asking GOD if He "keeps" TORAH. You think He does, Marc? Though shalt not TEMPT the LORD THY GOD. And like the Tree of knowledge of good and evil, being placed there as a spiritual test for Adam, you think GOD needs a spiritual test? Hmm.

mpossoff said:

[/size][/b]The context of Chapter 3 Tkjcc is to explain, from the Old Testament scriptures, why circumcision and Torah keeping are not prerequisites to receiving salvation.

There was another 'gospel' being preached, the 'gospel of circumcision. The Gentiles were not accepted by those who were "of the circumcision" because they believed that even though the Gentiles received Yahushua, that was not good enough. They believed that the Gentiles were not sons of Abraham and they were not saved until they were first circumcised and kept the Torah.

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among youas crucified?

This is the context. Once you can wrap your mind around the context of Galatians then it becomes apparent through the Spirit what Paul is teaching.

There's not a single verse in Galatians that says the Torah is abolished.

When I study I try to get the context versus picking out verses.

Marc

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WHO SAID IT WAS ABOLISHED. Dude, read the posts I post, instead of skimming through them. It cannot be Abolished, but it can be Obsolete. Old is different than non-existent. It has to exist, as how would those coming to Christ get Tutored in Law and sin? It has to be defined somewhere. Examples given, and showing how no one ever kept them except Jesus, and no one else ever could. But being Tutored doesn't make a slave of the person being shown what happened with these people, does it? That would be like reading Cinderella and telling me to go to the ball.

13When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

When did that happen? Within that Generation, at approximately 70 AD.
Gone Temple. Gone sacrifices. Gone people out of the land. Gone, lineages. Gone, Red Heifers. Gone, purple dye. Gone, temple furniture. Gone, gold. Gone, Jerusalem.

Now it is 100% Spiritual, and not Carnal. Nothing you can do in the flesh can get you Salvation, or Restored to Paradise.

It was old, and disappeared. With the New Covenant, we don't need to worry about any of those things, as they don't pertain the the New Covenant.

Tkjjc said:

No, Jesus the PERFECT Jew died. He KEPT TORAH.

Jesus the GOD and Savior of ALL mankind does.

That would be like asking GOD if He "keeps" TORAH. You think He does, Marc? Though shalt not TEMPT the LORD THY GOD. And like the Tree of knowledge of good and evil, being placed there as a spiritual test for Adam, you think GOD needs a spiritual test? Hmm.

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Tkjcc why would it be a test. My Lord and Savior kept the Torah and that's enough for me. You are testing the Lord by assumptions.

Do you or do you not have a Torah observant Messiah within you?

Do you have or Messiah within you that was obedient to the Lord?

Marc

mpossoff said:

Tkjcc why would it be a test. My Lord and Savior kept the Torah and that's enough for me. You are testing the Lord by assumptions.

Do you or do you not have a Torah observant Messiah within you?

Do you have or Messiah within you that was obedient to the Lord?

Marc

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Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ and He is the one that lives in us through His Spirit.. The old has been as said above absolete.. We now have the new..What does the law hold for you Marc? How do you obey the Law?

IamAdopted said:

Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ and He is the one that lives in us through His Spirit.. The old has been as said above absolete.. We now have the new..What does the law hold for you Marc? How do you obey the Law?

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By His Spirit.

"A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

What are the verb tenses IAA? Whatever it is.... is it obsolete or is it becoming obsolete?

Are we transformed into His image or are we being transformed into His image. See the difference in verb tenses?

Verb tenses are very important and Hebrews are full of them to consider.

Marc

He has made the first obsolete

Has made.. It is Done with.. The old is obsolete.. Because is it obsolete it is now showing fruits of this.. It is growing old.. It will disappear.. So if the Torah is forever how can it dissapear? Unless of course it has been fulfilled and now is obsolete

IamAdopted said:

He has made the first obsolete

Has made.. It is Done with.. The old is obsolete.. Because is it obsolete it is now showing fruits of this.. It is growing old.. It will disappear.. So if the Torah is forever how can it dissapear? Unless of course it has been fulfilled and now is obsolete

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IAA remember verb tenses.

But the proceding verses don't support that it is done with. Whatever it is is becoming obsolete and ready

This is like saying as an example: Are you being transformed into His image or are you transformed into His image?

To paraphrase your interpretaion: He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is obsolete and and old has disappeared.

Your verb tense interpretation doesn't support the actual text.

Is it the Torah that's disappearing or the old agreement that is disappearing.

Can't be the Torah because it is expressed and employed in both the old covenant and the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws(Torah in Hebrew) in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

So the New Covenant employs the Torah do it can't be the Torah that ready to disappear and that is growing old.
Marc

mpossoff said:

IAA remember verb tenses.

But the proceding verses don't support that it is done with. Whatever it is is becoming obsolete and ready

This is like saying as an example: Are you being transformed into His image or are you transformed into His image?

To paraphrase your interpretaion: He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is obsolete and and old has disappeared.

Your verb tense interpretation doesn't support the actual text.

Is it the Torah that's disappearing or the old agreement that is disappearing.

Can't be the Torah because it is expressed and employed in both the old covenant and the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws(Torah in Hebrew) in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

So the New Covenant employs the Torah do it can't be the Torah that ready to disappear and that is growing old.
Marc

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It has been made obsolete marc. Now we can see the fruitation of what has aready been made obsolete.. It is now growing old. Ready to disappear.. Meaning the Law was not made for all times but as a tutor for the truth.. A shadow of what was to come.. Christ our risen King..The new covenant..

No wonder Jesus threw out the money changers. A den of thieves. Still trying to see if they can buy their way into heaven. Leaven of the Pharisee's. Beware of it. They will try to ensnare you and trap you, catching you in a word play game, no different than what happened in Eden. No different than what happened to Jesus. Lip service won't cut it, in this Kingdom. Actions speak louder than words. He is looking for HELP, to plant more seed, to come HOME. JOIN the FIGHT against EVIL. Draw a line in the sand! Write the Name of Jesus in the sand, and ALL enemy will SCATTER, and they will run to and fro, gnashing their teeth.

Trust that Jesus died for YOU.
He gave His life for YOU.
For all your SINS of your FALLEN SPIRIT.
Father wonders if you will accept His Gift for YOU.
HE LOVES YOU, and WILL WELCOME YOU.

But you have to TRUST JESUS, LOVE JESUS, ACCEPT JESUS.
THANK FATHER, WORSHIP FATHER, GLORIFY FATHER.
IN ALL THAT YOU DO!
HE IS A JEALOUS FATHER, SO NO OTHER GOD WILL DO.

Even the rich man "kept" the Law contained in STONE, but in Jesus's Kingdom, it wasn't enough! HE WANTS IT ALL. So if you aren't willing to give it everything, and be complete, GO sit on the sidelines, and miss out on the FUN! These days are quickly coming to an end, and for those who give it everything, MUCH will be given back. But tribulations will come upon you, like you have never seen before.

Job 1:8
"Have you considered my servant ( INSERT YOUR NAME HERE)?"

Tkjjc said:

No wonder Jesus threw out the money changers. A den of thieves. Still trying to see if they can buy their way into heaven. Leaven of the Pharisee's. Beware of it. They will try to ensnare you and trap you, catching you in a word play game, no different than what happened in Eden. No different than what happened to Jesus. Lip service won't cut it, in this Kingdom. Actions speak louder than words. He is looking for HELP, to plant more seed, to come HOME. JOIN the FIGHT against EVIL. Draw a line in the sand! Write the Name of Jesus in the sand, and ALL enemy will SCATTER, and they will run to and fro, gnashing their teeth.

Trust that Jesus died for YOU.
He gave His life for YOU.
For all your SINS of your FALLEN SPIRIT.
Father wonders if you will accept His Gift for YOU.
HE LOVES YOU, and WILL WELCOME YOU.

But you have to TRUST JESUS, LOVE JESUS, ACCEPT JESUS.
THANK FATHER, WORSHIP FATHER, GLORIFY FATHER.
IN ALL THAT YOU DO!
HE IS A JEALOUS FATHER, SO NO OTHER GOD WILL DO.

Even the rich man "kept" the Law contained in STONE, but in Jesus's Kingdom, it wasn't enough! HE WANTS IT ALL. So if you aren't willing to give it everything, and be complete, GO sit on the sidelines, and miss out on the FUN! These days are quickly coming to an end, and for those who give it everything, MUCH will be given back. But tribulations will come upon you, like you have never seen before.

Job 1:8
"Have you considered my servant ( INSERT YOUR NAME HERE)?"

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Ummm let me correct you about the rich man. He had it backwards. You can't keep the commandments and expect salvation without faith. If the rich man had faith He would have followed Him.

We know from both the Old Testament and theNew Testament, that once cannot "earn" their way into heaven by keeping the commandments outside of faith. God wants us to put our entire trust in Him first, then to learn and walk in His ways. The two are inseparable.

Marc

mpossoff said:

Ummm let me correct you about the rich man. He had it backwards. You can't keep the commandments and expect salvation without faith. If the rich man had faith He would have followed Him.

We know from both the Old Testament and theNew Testament, that once cannot "earn" their way into heaven by keeping the commandments outside of faith. God wants us to put our entire trust in Him first, then to learn and walk in His ways. The two are inseparable.

Marc

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Umm,
let Me CORRECT you. YOU HAVE TO HAVE LOVE, not FAITH BROTHER. He already has my TRUST, He already has my FAITH, He is looking for LOVE!!

And please don't quote me,,,"if you love me, keep my commandments"
Because I keep, on MY HEART those Laws He gives ME, and overcome those that I need for purification and sanctification of this body. My Spirit is Saved regardless, it is this Body which must be put into submission.

God wants us to put our entire trust in Him first, then to learn and walk in His ways. The two are inseparable.

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And to learn to walk in His ways, are to Listen to what the Spirit of Truth says, not a piece of Rock, or a Scroll!

Tkjjc said:

Umm,
let Me CORRECT you. YOU HAVE TO HAVE LOVE, not FAITH BROTHER. He already has my TRUST, He already has my FAITH, He is looking for LOVE!!

And please don't quote me,,,"if you love me, keep my commandments"
Because I keep, on MY HEART those Laws He gives ME, and overcome those that I need for purification and sanctification of this body. My Spirit is Saved regardless, it is this Body which must be put into submission.



And to learn to walk in His ways, are to Listen to what the Spirit of Truth says, not a piece of Rock, or a Scroll!

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Are you trying to split hairs. If one does not have faith in Jesus it is unlikely that he will have love. More love more faith, less love less faith. When one has love he will keep the commandments because that is what Paul meant when he said that love is the fulfilling of the Law, love accomplishes the law.

People want to tell people to have love for God and also tell them that they don't have to keep the commandments. "Because we operate by love we don't need to keep the law". This is outrageous!

PROPHECYKID said:

Are you trying to split hairs. If one does not have faith in Jesus it is unlikely that he will have love. More love more faith, less love less faith. When one has love he will keep the commandments because that is what Paul meant when he said that love is the fulfilling of the Law, love accomplishes the law.

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Actually we can read this..
1Co 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
1Co 13:5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
1Co 13:6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
1Co 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1Co 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
1Co 13:13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Tkjjc said:

Umm,
let Me CORRECT you. YOU HAVE TO HAVE LOVE, not FAITH BROTHER. He already has my TRUST, He already has my FAITH, He is looking for LOVE!! Tkjcc I was just correcting you on your interpratation as PROPHECY said you are splitting hairs, like pulling straws. Did the rich man have faith to follow Him?

And please don't quote me,,,"if you love me, keep my commandments"
Because I keep, on MY HEART those Laws He gives ME, and overcome those that I need for purification and sanctification of this body. My Spirit is Saved regardless, it is this Body which must be put into submission. Does the Spirit of Truth contradict His written word?



And to learn to walk in His ways, are to Listen to what the Spirit of Truth says, not a piece of Rock, or a Scroll! Does the Spirit of Truth contradict what is written on tablets?

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Marc

PROPHECYKID said:

People want to tell people to have love for God and also tell them that they don't have to keep the commandments. "Because we operate by love we don't need to keep the law". This is outrageous!

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I am not telling you to have Love for God, because that should already be the Crown you WEAR on top on your HEART.
I never said you are not supposed to overcome your carnal wants and desires that keep you separated from that Love either, in the flesh.

I am questioning the New Covenant Law, as defined by a few of you here on this board. I know what it is, but it is mine. I cannot tell you what you should do, and not do, as that is personal between you and God. The Spirit of Truth will guide you and let you know.

Like I said, maybe we are on 2 different wavelengths. If you are talking about the BIG 10 on the 2 tablets written by God, I don't need many of those. I chopped those trees down awhile ago. My forest has lots of other trees in it. They are all there and need cut down, but eventually, they will all be gone, but ONE. The Last Tree, will remain forever, and that is the Tree of Life. But in this carnal body, there are a lot of trees in between, so I cannot SEE it, in this flesh. My spirit is already there, with His Spirit. They are calling, and I am willing, but this flesh is weak. But my goal is to progress as a Christian, to be a complete Overcomer. Do you know what that means? That means you walk on earth, in the flesh, as an apostle walked, and the people who came after them walked.

No worries, no stress, no desires of a carnal or fleshly nature, with a complete Revelation of Jesus, and a wholeness that few on this planet have enjoyed. Most won't understand a word I just said, but it is there in the Bible, if you SEE it. It literally is Peace on Earth, with nothing but Goodwill towards men and women. Dying wouldn't even phase you, prison wouldn't either. Nothing would. You would be hated for His Name's Sake. Are you now? You are in complete and total unity with Father and Son. Adopted as a son yourself, but a bond-servant until you are transformed.

When Jesus sat there alone in the Garden, Crying and Praying to Father, with tears of blood dripping from his eyes, WHO do you think He was praying about? How many tears must it take to stream, before you see what it is He Prayed about? He loves you so much. Why wouldn't you give yourself to Him? To climb over this carnal fleshly mountain we reside in would make Him so, so happy. And He is there, NOW, waiting on the other side.

It is a war that rages. Paul talks about this extensively but no one listened. A battle for your spirit. You have given your life to Christ right? This means you wish to be joined to Him. And you are. But how after letting Him sprinkle His Precious Blood in your most Holy of Holies, do we just allow sin to take back over in our lives? We can't! We must overcome these, and put them away. A lot of people don't understand this, as it is TOO DEEP for them. They are spiritually blind. But with Jesus sitting on your throne as King, in your spirit, and having your spirit joined to His, one must realize that if they don't put a stop to sin in the flesh, the spirit will eventually be ruled by that very carnality that wants to rule it. And the spirit will eventually die to Christ. These people will have let the Anti-Christ rule over them. Once at this point, either you put yourself back on the right track, with His Help as He is ALWAYS calling you, or you don't.

We are not waiting for some boogie man to sit in Jerusalem and claim to be God. Or waiting for the work we do and how we think to be governed by a mark. It is the number of a man. Any man. And for those who don't see this and will not follow Jesus, not just in the spirit, but in the flesh, this man may become THEM. To me that is a lot more scary than a world ruler chopping peoples heads off, ever would be, including mine.

Did the rich man have faith to follow Him?

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Sure He did, but He didn't have complete LOVE. He had faith already, as he addressed Jesus with Honor, as Teacher, so He knew He was the real deal.

Mark 10:21
Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

In other words, he had LOTS of money....and Jesus knew his heart, and who reigned on that heart. He kept the Law, but not the Spirit of the Law.

1st Tim 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Heb 13:5
{Make sure that} your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"

Tkjjc said:

Sure He did, but He didn't have complete LOVE. He had faith already, as he addressed Jesus with Honor, as Teacher, so He knew He was the real deal.

Mark 10:21
Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

In other words, he had LOTS of money....and Jesus knew his heart, and who reigned on that heart. He kept the Law, but not the Spirit of the Law.

1st Tim 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Heb 13:5
{Make sure that} your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"

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In other words, he had LOTS of money....and Jesus knew his heart, and who reigned on that heart. He kept the Law, but not the Spirit of the Law.

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Yeshua points out that God is interested in commitment first and challenges the rich man on the aspect of trust.

God wants us to put our entire trust in Him first, then to learn and walk in His ways. The two are inseparable.

You can't keep the commandments without faith/trust is what the rich man has done and lacked because of the rich man really trusted Yeshua he would have followed Him.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going

By faith did the rich man obey Yeshua when Yeshua said sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me?

Marc

re: the OP YES/NO?

YES.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

end of discussion

walloffire said:

re: the OP YES/NO?

YES.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

end of discussion

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Way to jump in after 1500 posts, but its all good. You opinion is valuable. We have been through that verse. I understand it, do you?