Yes 1844 is unbiblical, but why abandon the Sabbath also ?

[Byfaithalone1]

Frankly, what I said to you was not only true; it was very reasonable.

And my reply was equally reasonable.

If you are not willing to grasp the simple logic of what I have shared with you in my previous post, then nothing that I would say to you beyond this point would make any difference. Besides, time is too valuable to me to waste on addressing straw-man arguments.

I certainly will not seek to push you to read and respond to my last post if you would rather not. However, I will note that my arguments were on point and directly relevant to our discussion.

But here is what all comes down to: you will either accept the truth or you will continue to harden your heart against it. Either way, you will answer to God for what you do.

Which truth is that? Your truth that, one day, my salvation will be contingent upon my observance of the same law to which I have been commanded to die?

NOTE: I have taken no issue with your seventh day practices. One might wonder why you feel that you have a Biblical basis to take issue with mine.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I cannot, bearing Romans completely in mind, believe that because if I don't observe the Sabbath in a way man believes it should be that I'm somehow hell bound.

I think we may be missing one another. Let me summarize what I believe and then we can better determine where we agree and disagree.

(1) I do not believe that the sabbath has anything to do with salvation or with being "hell bound." Do you believe that the sabbath has something to do with being "hell bound?"

(2) The requirements in the Bible that relate to how many miles a person can walk on the sabbath, how much weight can be carried on the sabbath or the types of sacrifices that are to be offered on the sabbath were commands made by God to the Israelites. They aren't based on that which a man believes a person should do on the sabbath.

(3) Seventh day behavior that is outside of the God-given sabbath commands should not be considered "sabbath observance."

(4) Going to church on Saturday does not--by itself--constitute "sabbath observance."

(5) I have no agenda whatsoever regarding your seventh day behavior.
​

If you want to be strict and without disregarding any scripture, please do explain these instructions to Moses.

Exodus 16
28 Then the LORD said to Moses, "How long will you [a] refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? 29 Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out." 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

You make an excellent point and it is completely complimentary with the point that I am making. Many people claim to observe the sabbath. However, I have yet to meet a person who actually observes the sabbath in the manner in which God commanded that it should be observed.

Thanks for the dialogue on this subject.

BFA

 

[LogosRhema]

I think we may be missing one another. Let me summarize what I believe and then we can better determine where we agree and disagree.

(1) I do not believe that the sabbath has anything to do with salvation or with being "hell bound." Do you believe that the sabbath has something to do with being "hell bound?"

(2) The requirements in the Bible that relate to how many miles a person can walk on the sabbath, how much weight can be carried on the sabbath or the types of sacrifices that are to be offered on the sabbath were commands made by God to the Israelites. They aren't based on that which a man believes a person should do on the sabbath.

(3) Seventh day behavior that is outside of the God-given sabbath commands should not be considered "sabbath observance."

(4) Going to church on Saturday does not--by itself--constitute "sabbath observance."

(5) I have no agenda whatsoever regarding your seventh day behavior.
​

You make an excellent point and it is completely complimentary with the point that I am making. Many people claim to observe the sabbath. However, I have yet to meet a person who actually observes the sabbath in the manner in which God commanded that it should be observed.

Thanks for the dialogue on this subject.

BFA

From what I've gathered its a day to rest and take it easy. I go to church on Sunday, even though its not the "qualified" sabbath. Essentially the Sabbath was created for man to rest and honor our God. So I do set a day aside where I just take it easy and I find it honorable to my God to go to Church for worship and further my walk in Him.

Thanks to you too for the dialogue.

 

[JonMiller]

It's not an issue of whether or not it is important. Rather, it's a matter of fulfillment. The SDA denomination teaches and believes that laws and practices that have been fulfilled may not be immediately applicable (although an understanding of such practices may tell us something about the way that God related with His people). I believe that all sabbaths described in Leviticus 23 have been fulfilled.

I don't understand how the weekly Sabbath could be fulfilled by anything Christ did or by anything anyone could do. I fail to see how this is a good argument.

Maybe it is useful to again look at what the weekly Sabbath was meant to do?

JM
(I am ignoring and not responding to some other things in your text, it doesn't mean I agree with them.)

 

[JonMiller]

By the way, I can completely buy the idea that the actual day doesn't matter... that all that matters is that one day is taken to rest, praise God, and worship Him.

I do think that that day shuold be the Sabbath (7th day) but it is entirely reasonable to say that the actual day doesn't matter.

JM

 

[LogosRhema]

I don't understand how the weekly Sabbath could be fulfilled by anything Christ did or by anything anyone could do. I fail to see how this is a good argument.

Maybe it is useful to again look at what the weekly Sabbath was meant to do?

JM
(I am ignoring and not responding to some other things in your text, it doesn't mean I agree with them.)

Exodus 16
28 Then the LORD said to Moses, "How long will you [a] refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? 29 Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out." 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

If keeping the Sabbath is so important, then why aren't you keeping it the same way God himself told Moses to?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I don't understand how the weekly Sabbath could be fulfilled by anything Christ did or by anything anyone could do. I fail to see how this is a good argument.

OK. Well let's take a step back.

Could circumcision be fulfilled by anything that Christ did?

Could the passover be fulfilled by anything that Christ did?

Could the feast of weeks or tabernacles be fulfilled by anything that Christ did?

Could the year of Jubilee be fulfilled by anything that Christ did?

Could animal sacrifices be fulfilled by anything that Christ did?

If so. How?

Maybe it is useful to again look at what the weekly Sabbath was meant to do?

I'm game. What do you believe the weekly sabbath was meant to do?

(I am ignoring and not responding to some other things in your text, it doesn't mean I agree with them.)

I would never assume that you agree with me, nor do I believe you need to. I am here to discuss. Let's discuss.

BFA

 

[Restin]

OK. Well let's take a step back.

Could circumcision be fulfilled by anything that Christ did?

Could the passover be fulfilled by anything that Christ did?

Could the feast of weeks or tabernacles be fulfilled by anything that Christ did?

Could the year of Jubilee be fulfilled by anything that Christ did?

Could animal sacrifices be fulfilled by anything that Christ did?

If so. How?
BFA

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,
till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; KJV

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:
I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. KJV

Peace...Restin

 

[jorgfe]

What does the Bible say?

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. Romans 14:5
​

Gilbert

 

[BobRyan]

One thing I find troubling as a former Adventist is that most of us, do not just reject the unbiblical 1844 teachings and false visions of Mrs White, we also drop the Seventh Day Sabbath (Saturday). We must learn to select and sift the truth from error. There is no solid bible evidence that we should not keep the Sabbath as new testament Christians.

This causes the Adventist to reject all progressive attempts as apostatic. Do not reject the entire system.

So let's talk why do people reject the Sabbath which was ordained before sin (Gen 2:1-6) ?

Good point.

And err...umm... besides - 1844 IS rock solid if one is interested in sola-scriptura doctrinal positions. (I guess that would be another thread)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

What does the Bible say?

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. Romans 14:5
​

Gilbert

Close.

It is says that one man esteems (regards as holy) one day ABOVE another (in that Lev 23 list of annual feast days of course) while another esteems (regards as holy) ALL of them.

Not sure how this helps the "I would like to ignore the 4th commandment" guys.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

From what I've gathered its a day to rest and take it easy. I go to church on Sunday, even though its not the "qualified" sabbath. Essentially the Sabbath was created for man to rest and honor our God. So I do set a day aside where I just take it easy and I find it honorable to my God to go to Church for worship and further my walk in Him.

Thanks to you too for the dialogue.

So then you see Christ's endorsement of His own holy day as a "good thing" when he says "the Sabbath was made for mankind not mankind made for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 -- ?

This would indicate that you see the 10 commandments as "a good thing" as well. Am I understanding you correctly?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[woobadooba]

What does the Bible say?

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. Romans 14:5
​

Gilbert

This is true!

BUT!

Who made the 'seventh day' holy, man or God?

You can regard any day as holy if you would like; but you better make sure you regard what God declares to be holy too.

 

[Avonia]

So then you see Christ's endorsement of His own holy day as a "good thing" when he says "the Sabbath was made for mankind not mankind made for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 -- ?

This would indicate that you see the 10 commandments as "a good thing" as well. Am I understanding you correctly?

in Christ,

Bob

Why do you think opinions vary so much on the issue when people have been studying the same text for so long?

 

[LogosRhema]

So then you see Christ's endorsement of His own holy day as a "good thing" when he says "the Sabbath was made for mankind not mankind made for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 -- ?

This would indicate that you see the 10 commandments as "a good thing" as well. Am I understanding you correctly?

in Christ,

Bob

I delight in God's word! Of course the ten commandments are great! I don't focus too much on them because Christ summed them up into one thing... Love. If we follow Love we won't (in theory leaving out our tendency to do the opposite) break the ten commandments. Don't get me wrong, the Ten Commandments are important, but if we put an emphasis on the law... sin will prevail. If we put an emphasis on Love and follow Love as Christ did, Grace prevails. At least from what I've gathered thus far.

I see it like this.

In math there are several equations that can sum up to the right answer. Some equations are harder than others. Typically in the college setting the professor will teach us the harder equation first then show us an easier way. I see the law of the prophets in this way. It may be good to follow the law, but following exactly is near impossible for a human. BUT Christ summed the law of the prophets into one thing that connects them all, love. If we follow the path of love, which is still challenging, we'll find more freedom as we are focusing on one thing rather than a... intimidating list.

If the law of the prophets are centered on love, then if we follow love as God can teach us... Tell me where we can go wrong?

 

[JonMiller]

If the 10 commandments tell us how to love (which I Agree with), then why ignore them?

JM

 

[Mankin]

The Fourth Commandment is both a way to love God and to rejunevate yourself. It's been scientifically proven that health improves if humans have a day of rest.

There is an important point to consider in this debate. If God wished to radically change, or get rid of the 4th commandment, why is there not as much emphasis placed on it? Also, why did all the conflicts between the Gentiles and the Jews involve ceremonial laws like circumcision and not the Sabbath issue? Surely this issue would cause more controversy.

Also, Jesus rarely mentioned the ceremonial laws, and if he did he mostly dismissed them like the washing of the hands. Yet he brought up the issue of Sabbath multiple times and he never suggested that the Sabbath rest was null and void(merely that he was the master of the Sabbath).

 

[LogosRhema]

If the 10 commandments tell us how to love (which I Agree with), then why ignore them?

JM

They are centered around love, not teach us to love. After 8000 years it took Christ to reveal this to us when it was right before us. Hence why the greatest commandment was essentially the Golden Rule. We can find more about love as the center of everything as Spiritual Gifts without love are worthless. Christ wasn't emphasizing the Law, He was emphasizing what the law was centered upon, the core, the motivation, what makes it.

If you want to honor your laws. Then follow love and you will easily honor the law.

 

[Mankin]

Frankly, what I said to you was not only true; it was very reasonable and simple too.

If you are not willing to grasp the simple logic of what I have shared with you in my previous post, then nothing that I would say to you beyond this point would make any difference. Besides, time is too valuable to me to waste on addressing straw-man arguments.

But here is what all comes down to: you will either accept the truth or you will continue to harden your heart against it. Either way, you will answer to God for what you do.

The antagonism is not necessary.

 

[tall73]

I think one possible argument to counter Tall's is that the Sabbath is something that people generally agree with not being Sunday. It is just that they don't think it is important either.

No it is not at all Sunday.

But the specific argument was regarding Romans 2 and the law written on the heart of the gentiles which they knew from the God-given conscience.

The point is that the Sabbath is not an inherently moral command but is a sign.