YEC's/ sheep

[Jet Black]

Yeah. That makes sense.

I'm really confused about all this.

Tell me... do traits that a new population develops that are favorable... are those traits introduced, or are they reoccurences resulting from genetic recombination?

Have they been present all along but been in the background (in their genotype but not their phenotype), or is it just that the new traits that offers a better chance of survival simply appear? (never present in their genotype before)

It is a mixture of the two. there are some traits that are simply the result of variation, the mixing of different alleles (versions of a gene) from the two parents, which have already been present in the population... note that you need a fairly large population in order to have a number of different traits (a start population of 2 will not give much variation)... however the different alleles are formed by mutation of the gene. so these mutations are newly introduced traits. a simple example of this is tongue rolling... try to roll your tongue, you might or might not be able to do that... that is the result of a single gene mutation.

 

[Drotar]

You know, like Answers in Genesis, it almost seems like transpeciation makes sense. As in the context of genetic recombination.

The creation of new traits via mutations seems a little unlikely by all standards.

But to I'm going to have to do more thinking. I need to thank everyone for being honest and giving me more science to sort through and apply. I'm going to take another read at a biology textbook and take a break from here. I'll come back if I have questions, but it's not in me to simply ignore evidence for something. Thanks for the help. Don't take this to mean I'm becoming Old Earth, but, merely having seen how my system slams against many inconsistencies, I'll have to reconfigure what I believe or simply ignore what logic and biology says. Give me a few weeks to take a look. TTYL Jesus loves you!

 

[JohnR7]

God created it, a helpless animal, and uses it constantly as a symbol of our reliance on God. See Psalm 23.

Sheep presents a bit of a problem for evolutionists, because they just seemed to show up about 6,000 years ago and there really is no history of where they came from.

 

[Jet Black]

The creation of new traits via mutations seems a little unlikely by all standards.

heh, I have a couple of new traits, I think via mutation, since I do not know anyone else alive who can do this

one of them is that I have individual control over the last joint in my finger, so I can bend it without bending the rest of the finger... I can do this in all my fingers. I am the only member of my family who can do this, and the only person I know of who can do this.

 

[Jet Black]

Sheep presents a bit of a problem for evolutionists, because they just seemed to show up about 6,000 years ago and there really is no history of where they came from.

wild sheep john, wild sheep!

and the domestication began over 10,000 years ago.

http://www.asrc.agri.missouri.edu/keislerd/165/introduction.html

 

[Jet Black]

looking at this link:

http://www.asrc.agri.missouri.edu/keislerd/165/history.html

gives a good reason why the sheep is so symbolic in the bible, since the Hebrews were some of the greatest shepherd's, so the sheep would have had creat cultural importance to them.

 

[JohnR7]

wild sheep john, wild sheep!

and the domestication began over 10,000 years ago.

Ok, even if sheep have been around for 6 to 10 thousand years. There is just no solid evidence of there being any sort of sheep before that time. Just a lot of speculation.

 

[Jet Black]

do you know that John, or are you just spouting idle conjecture? I think the latter.

 

[Drotar]

heh, I have a couple of new traits, I think via mutation, since I do not know anyone else alive who can do this

one of them is that I have individual control over the last joint in my finger, so I can bend it without bending the rest of the finger... I can do this in all my fingers. I am the only member of my family who can do this, and the only person I know of who can do this.

OK, I meant traits that are going to ensure your survival as opposed to everyone else who can't... control over the last joint in their finger.

I meant traits that benefit the species so substantially that it increases their survival rate by a wide margin.

I can see it happening through the resurgence of old traits through genetic recombination.

But not through random mutation. Like I said, possible, but too unlikely. I'm going to stick with solid facts here.

And like AIG's article, it seems that transpeciation through the latter model is a scientific possibility. More than that, an actual occurence.

 

[Jet Black]

well it is a relatively large change really, adding extra functionality to a joint, that no-one else has. the only reason it doesn't get selected for is because there is no selective force. now one thing about this mutation is that it makes me a better rock climber, since I can hang from that joint alone. given the correct environment, this could have ensured survival and could have been a gene that was passed on.

The majority of traits aren't substantial changes though, just relatively small ones, and these are amplified over time.

 

[troodon]

OK, I meant traits that are going to ensure your survival as opposed to everyone else who can't... control over the last joint in their finger.

I meant traits that benefit the species so substantially that it increases their survival rate by a wide margin

From an old post of mine:

AIDS resistance:
http://www.aegis.com/news/re/1996/RE960834.html
http://www.isat.jmu.edu/users/klevi...0resistance.doc

Malaria resistance (sickle cell):
http://sickle.bwh.harvard.edu/malaria_sickle.html
http://www.umm.edu/blood/sickle.htm

Malaria resistance (non-sickle cell):
http://unisci.com/stories/20012/0626011.htm
http://www.malariajournal.com/content/2/1/5

Milk digestion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ivu-veg-news/message/97

Hope this helps

 

[JohnR7]

do you know that John, or are you just spouting idle conjecture? I think the latter.

I will show you my evidence if you show me your evidence.

 

[Jet Black]

I will show you my evidence if you show me your evidence.

?

this isn't a biggest.... vegtable... competition you know.

 

[JohnR7]

?

this isn't a biggest.... vegtable... competition you know.

No it is a science board and science requires evidence. Show me your evidence that sheep evolved. This should not be difficult for you to show me that sheep have been around for more than 10,000 years. After all you have pretty good evidence that man has been around longer than 10,000 years. So show me the evidence for the sheep.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

No it is a science board and science requires evidence. Show me your evidence that sheep evolved. This should not be difficult for you to show me that sheep have been around for more than 10,000 years. After all you have pretty good evidence that man has been around longer than 10,000 years. So show me the evidence for the sheep.

Molecular evidence indicates that sheep were domesticated about 10,000 years ago from more than one species of wild sheep.

http://www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk/proc_bio/abstracts/hiendleder.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12028771&dopt=Abstract

If Drotar ever tangled with a bighorn ram or even a domestic ram that was feeling cranky he might not think they were so defenseless, that is if he survived the experience with no more than a few broken bones.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Freodin]

If Drotar ever tangled with a bighorn ram or even a domestic ram that was feeling cranky he might not think they were so defenseless, that is if he survived the experience with no more than a few broken bones.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

Having had experiences with such a ram myself, I can only second that.

The "fluffy littly bah-bah sheep" image is not very realistic.

 

[fortheloveofmike]

Having had experiences with such a ram myself, I can only second that.

The "fluffy littly bah-bah sheep" image is not very realistic.

no im pretty sure i could take a sheep. heck, i could probly take like 5 at a time. 10 if i had a knife.

 

[Drotar]

Hey, I'm not some little girly fairy man. Don't let the avatar fool you.

I could take a sheep.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I could take a sheep, with a Desert Eagle that is. They're big, they're fast, and they have really long horns.

 

[Drotar]

Question:

Would 10,000 years really have that big an impact though?

I mean, right now all they can do is eat and mate. They need to be led to relieve themselves in different areas so that they don't eat the same grass they do their business in.

I would think that it would take much longer to stupidify an animal. 10,000 years doesn't seem long enough. TTYL Jesus loves you!