YEC's/ sheep

[Drotar]

Ha. I bet you thought I was referring to sheep figuratively, as I've been called such many times already.

I'm talking about the cute, furry little animal.

Problem: It has no natural defenses. It can't hide, it can't camoflauge, it can't fly, it can't jump, it can't roar (maybe it can).


It can't even RUN. It's knees buckle. They must constantly be shepherded around.

They're dumb alright. But I cannot see how millions of years of evolution would bear THAT animal.

God created it, a helpless animal, and uses it constantly as a symbol of our reliance on God. See Psalm 23.

An Old Earth model continues to confuse me... TTYL Jesus loves you!

 

[fortheloveofmike]

Ha. I bet you thought I was referring to sheep figuratively, as I've been called such many times already.

I'm talking about the cute, furry little animal.

Problem: It has no natural defenses. It can't hide, it can't camoflauge, it can't fly, it can't jump, it can't roar (maybe it can).


It can't even RUN. It's knees buckle. They must constantly be shepherded around.

They're dumb alright. But I cannot see how millions of years of evolution would bear THAT animal.

God created it, a helpless animal, and uses it constantly as a symbol of our reliance on God. See Psalm 23.

An Old Earth model continues to confuse me... TTYL Jesus loves you!

whoah dude, youre smart. i never even thought of that.

ps i did think that you meant sheep figuratively, like us yec's are just stupid sheep.

 

[ObbiQuiet]

Does the fact that they travel in large groups mean anything to you?

whoah dude, youre smart. i never even thought of that.

No comment.

ps i did think that you meant sheep figuratively, like us yec's are just stupid sheep.

Again, no comment.

 

[OldBadfish]

ObbiQuiet: Oh be quiet!

 

[ThePhoenix]

Humanity bred sheep for docility out of a wild strain. No wild dogs have floppy ears because they enevitably lead to painful and fatal ear infections. Sheep were probably had less meat, were certainly meaner, and were probably a lot more able to escape pre-domestication (remeber when you are being bred by humans the inability to run very far is a positive survival trait. Bad sheep make good mutton).

 

[AntiCow]

Does the fact that they travel in large groups mean anything to you?

A large group of wild sheep? Wouldn't that just mean a month's worth of free lunches for nearby animals?

 

[ThePhoenix]

A large group of wild sheep? Wouldn't that just mean a month's worth of free lunches for nearby animals?

Nope, because the wild variety was much more likely to be able to defend itself, as stated. Sheep that kicked excessively would have been culled when meat was needed. Less aggressive sheep would have been culled later on, or not at all, and in fact may have been bred for their docility. Do this for 11,000 years and you have a very docile animal.

 

[AntiCow]

I just did a Google search, and there are wild sheep. So there you go.

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=wild+sheep

 

[Jet Black]

hmm... pick a domesticated animal to attempt to prove one's point... how odd.

Sheep are domesticated animals. much like the modern day turkey, they have been bred for their stupidity and inability to do anything remotely useful except provide such things as meat, wool and thanksgiving dinners respectively. look at wild sheep and wild turkeys, and you will see that this does not apply.

Sheep running is a simple case of artificial selection: the sheep which were less able to run are more likely to have been captured by the person herding them, these sheep will have been bred from, and produce offspring that are even worse at running, which will have been selected to breed from because they are easier to control, right up to modern day sheep.

Cows are also domesticated animals, bred to produce vast quantities of milk and beef. The relatives of cows in the wild do not produce nearly as much milk, or for such long periods of time. another example of artificial selection.

Dogs are another domesticated animal too They have several traits that distinguish them from wild wolves and so on, such as eye contact (helpful in socialising with humans). however they also display manz wolf characteristics, particularly as you approach semi-wild varieties like huskies can be. another example of artificial selection.

really if you are going to pick an animal to look at, you shouldn't be picking one that has been domesticated for millenia.

 

[Jet Black]

double post

 

[Drotar]

Thank you anticow.

Fortheloveofmike, I hope you were being sarcastic. I'm probably one of the dumbest guys here.

The Phoenix, to say that they got bigger, and weaker because they no longer needed defenses would be Lamarcke's law of use and disuse in conjunction with his inheritance of acquired traits theory.

How do they tie into natural selection? Speaking of natural selection within domestication, the smaller ones would get killed off less frequently. So wouldn't they have gotten smaller over time?

Mostly though, please explain how this ties into natural selection and speciation, NOT use and disuse.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Wow, wild sheep are more robust and nastier then domesticated sheep, how totally unexpected Alas my point is destroyed utterly

 

[Drotar]

K.

Please explain how this ties into natural selection, not the law of use and disuse. Saying the sheep didn't run as much so got fatter with time isn't natural selection. It's Lamarck, not Darwin.

 

[Jet Black]

How do they tie into natural selection? Speaking of natural selection within domestication, the smaller ones would get killed off less frequently. So wouldn't they have gotten smaller over time?

the selection isn't really natural, as I explained on the previous page. the reason they wouldn't have got smaller is because of breeding practises. one tends to keep stock/breeding animals that are prime specemins that would be excellent to eat, but you don't because you can breed from them and produce lots of prime offspring instead... ever heard of the goose that lays golden eggs? It's just like that.

 

[Drotar]

Hey, you guys use practical examples of animals all the time.

Don't disregard it when we give it a try.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Thank you anticow.

Fortheloveofmike, I hope you were being sarcastic. I'm probably one of the dumbest guys here.

The Phoenix, to say that they got bigger, and weaker because they no longer needed defenses would be Lamarcke's law of use and disuse in conjunction with his inheritance of acquired traits theory.

How do they tie into natural selection? Speaking of natural selection within domestication, the smaller ones would get killed off less frequently. So wouldn't they have gotten smaller over time?

Mostly though, please explain how this ties into natural selection and speciation, NOT use and disuse.

That's not the laws of disuse, that's the laws of selective breeding. Farmers bred the largest sheep since they provided the most meat. Natural selection doesn't apply when humanity is doing the breeding. In this case humanity distinctly bred for a dumb, harmless, meaty animal. Take a good look at Bobcats and house cats, and wolves and dogs to get the picture.

Edit - Jet Black beat me to it.

 

[Jet Black]

note that you are looking at artificial selection now, so the selection procedures are different. Humans are the evolutionary driving force, rather than some survival of the fittest mechanism, because the humans have created an artificial environment and are intentionally selecting for different features, that may not be any good in the wild, but this does not matter because the animals are not in the wild.

(sorry about typos, I am swapping between totally different keyboards)

 

[Jet Black]

Hey, you guys use practical examples of animals all the time.

Don't disregard it when we give it a try.

it's not just a matter of giving it a try, you have to look at what you are saying. Science isn't done by the shotgun approach, one has to think about it first... just mentioning sheep made me think "domesticated animal, natural selection does not apply"

 

[Jet Black]

Edit - Jet Black beat me to it.

they call me ligtnin' fingers...

 

[Drotar]

the selection isn't really natural, as I explained on the previous page. the reason they wouldn't have got smaller is because of breeding practises. one tends to keep stock/breeding animals that are prime specemins that would be excellent to eat, but you don't because you can breed from them and produce lots of prime offspring instead... ever heard of the goose that lays golden eggs? It's just like that.

Yeah. That makes sense.

I'm really confused about all this.

Tell me... do traits that a new population develops that are favorable... are those traits introduced, or are they reoccurences resulting from genetic recombination?

Have they been present all along but been in the background (in their genotype but not their phenotype), or is it just that the new traits that offers a better chance of survival simply appear? (never present in their genotype before)