Yahshua

pat34lee · Sep 21, 2017

beloved7 said:
The mosaic law was a covenant between God the Father and the Isrealites. I'm not Jewish, neither myself nor my ancestors were under that law. Jesus saves. The apostle Paul is crystal clear on what the Jesus plus law gospel is; false and a form of slavery. Jesus was not crucified in vain.

You are deliberately not answering the question.

Why do you hold God so cheap that you would
do your will instead of his?

You are not a Jew, but as a believer, you are a
child of Abraham, are you not? If so, then you
are under the covenant of Abraham.

Genesis 17:9-14
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

And, as a believer, you are grafted into the olive
tree, which is Israel. This is the same Israel which
received the covenant at Mt. Sinai. There is NO
Christian or gentile covenant. All covenants are
with Israel, their ancestors and their children.
Those who have no part of Israel have no part of God.

Romans 11:17
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

pat34lee · Sep 21, 2017

gadar perets said:
We are not discussing "Yahwah", but "Yahshua". How do you spell "Yahshua" in Hebrew?

There are three spellings and pronunciations given
in the old testament.

gadar perets · Sep 21, 2017

pat34lee said:
There are three spellings and pronunciations given
in the old testament.

I understand your view, but I want CherubRam's explanation of how to spell "Yahshua" in Hebrew.

CherubRam · Sep 21, 2017

Vowel Note.
An example of the word בר (meaning "grain"), which consists of the two consonants with the sounds "B" and "R" and cannot be pronounced without a vowel between them. In most cases the implied vowel will be an “a” or an “e”. In this case the implied vowel is the "a" and the word בר is pronounced “BaR”.

The "E" vowel was introduced to the Hebrew during the Middle Ages.

Yahwah
Yahshua

Dropping the ayins so as to not pronounce God's name or Christ name is proof that the vowel was A.

Reformed2 · Sep 21, 2017

pat34lee said:
You are deliberately not answering the question.

Why do you hold God so cheap that you would
do your will instead of his?

You are not a Jew, but as a believer, you are a
child of Abraham, are you not? If so, then you
are under the covenant of Abraham.

Genesis 17:9-14
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

And, as a believer, you are grafted into the olive
tree, which is Israel. This is the same Israel which
received the covenant at Mt. Sinai. There is NO
Christian or gentile covenant. All covenants are
with Israel, their ancestors and their children.
Those who have no part of Israel have no part of God.

Romans 11:17
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Christians are not Jewish, that's just silly. We are descendants of Abraham, adopted by FAITH.

It's not I that am "holding God cheap" it is you. You are perverting the gospel. If you want to convert to Judaism, do not dare try to water down the Gospel of Jesus Christ with your legalism.

The book of Galatians already covers this, specifically chapter 3. Do you recall the righteous anger the apostle Paul had to those who did precisley what you are doing?

Meowzltov · Sep 21, 2017

gadar perets said:
If you are referring to the verses, it is not a joke. See post #139.

The Masoretes should have never given vowel annotations to the tetragrammaton, since no one knows how it is spoken.

gadar perets · Sep 21, 2017

The ban on pronouncing the Name existed long before the Masorets added vowel points. I believe they knew how to say it, but kept it hidden with their false vowel pointing. Why else would they point it seven different ways? In place of the vowels that would have revealed the true pronunciation of the Name were placed vowels that one would find when pronouncing Adonai (Lord) or Elohim (God).

pat34lee · Sep 21, 2017

beloved7 said:
Christians are not Jewish, that's just silly. We are descendants of Abraham, adopted by FAITH.

It's not I that am "holding God cheap" it is you. You are perverting the gospel. If you want to convert to Judaism, do not dare try to water down the Gospel of Jesus Christ with your legalism.

The book of Galatians already covers this, specifically chapter 3. Do you recall the righteous anger the apostle Paul had to those who did precisley what you are doing?

You need to relearn three terms: one at the end of the post

lawlessness
Matthew 7:23
What Does Lawlessness Mean in the New Testament

works of the law
Galatians 3:5
Just What Are the "Works of the Law"?

James 2:14-20
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

It may help you to learn what faith meant when Jesus said it
instead of what the English language says today. After all, he
never spoke English, but Hebrew. And there is a big difference.

Emunah - Faith
Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine

Reformed2 · Sep 21, 2017

pat34lee said:
You need to relearn three terms: one at the end of the post

lawlessness
Matthew 7:23
What Does Lawlessness Mean in the New Testament

works of the law
Galatians 3:5
Just What Are the "Works of the Law"?

James 2:14-20
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

It may help you to learn what faith meant when Jesus said it
instead of what the English language says today. After all, he
never spoke English, but Hebrew. And there is a big difference.

Emunah - Faith
Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine

So, you reject Paul's teachings and virtually large portions of the New Testament? You're not being clever or sophisticated, nor are you going deeper into the word. You're perverting the Gospel of Jesus Christ into a judaized works based gospel.

You're citing scripture verses that I'm very well aware of. What are you saying, that scripture contradicts itself? It doesn't. How is what you're saying any different then what the church in Galatia was doing before the Holy Spirit via Paul ripped into them?

Meowzltov · Sep 21, 2017

gadar perets said:
I believe they knew how to say it, but kept it hidden with their false vowel pointing. Why else would they point it seven different ways?

Why else would they point it seven different ways? Because they didn't know how to point it!!!! The simplest solution is usually the right one.

SteveCaruso · Sep 21, 2017

pat34lee said:

The last two are both /yehoshua/, not what's listed there.

One is simply spelled plene where the other is not.

SteveCaruso · Sep 21, 2017

CherubRam said:
The "E" vowel was introduced to the Hebrew during the Middle Ages.

Categorically incorrect.

The E vowel was contemporary to Jesus' time and before it. The NT (1st century AD) and Septuagint (3rd century BC) spell the name Ἰησοῦς /iēsous/.

The Middle Ages started in the 5th century AD.

SteveCaruso · Sep 21, 2017

CherubRam said:
Dropping the ayins so as to not pronounce God's name or Christ name is proof that the vowel was A.

Dropping the 'ayins does not affect the pronunciation of the Tetragram in any way whatsoever.

There is no 'ayin in YHWH.

CherubRam · Sep 22, 2017

SteveCaruso said:
Categorically incorrect.

The E vowel was contemporary to Jesus' time and before it. The NT (1st century AD) and Septuagint (3rd century BC) spell the name Ἰησοῦς /iēsous/.
By David Steinberg
The Middle Ages started in the 5th century AD.

Pronunciation of Short Vowels - It is probable that there was an increasing tendency in some contexts to pronounce /a/, /i/ and /u/ as [ę], [ẹ], [o] respectively. This is a development closely paralleled in many Aramaic and Arabic dialects. This process eventually altered the phonemic structure of Hebrew.

Vowel and cantillation marks were added to the older consonantal layer of the Bible between 600 CE and the beginning of the 10th century. Proto-Hebrew vowel system is reconstructed as */a aː oː i iː u uː/ (and possibly rare */eː/)

CherubRam · Sep 22, 2017

SteveCaruso said:
Dropping the 'ayins does not affect the pronunciation of the Tetragram in any way whatsoever.

There is no 'ayin in YHWH.

Hebrew can not be spoken without vowel sounds with the consonants.

gadar perets · Sep 22, 2017

CherubRam said:
Yahshua, pronounced Yah shoo wah. The U is a double UU sound giving a UW sound.

You started this thread with those words in order to teach us that "Yahshua" is the correct name of our Savior. Please give me a verse containing a name in Hebrew that is pronounced Yah shoo wah in English. In other words, from what Hebrew letters are you getting that pronunciation?

SteveCaruso · Sep 22, 2017

CherubRam said:
Vowel and cantillation marks were added to the older consonantal layer of the Bible between 600 CE and the beginning of the 10th century.

The Greek transliterations and Secunda predate those systems by many hundreds of years.

CherubRam said:
Proto-Hebrew vowel system is reconstructed as */a aː oː i iː u uː/ (and possibly rare */eː/)

No one in Christ's time spoke Proto-Hebrew.

SteveCaruso · Sep 22, 2017

CherubRam said:
Hebrew can not be spoken without vowel sounds with the consonants.

This response is a complete non-sequitur.

The letter 'ayin is NOT a vowel sound and has no place in the Tetragram.

visionary · Sep 22, 2017

Jewish literature has a lot to say about the heavenly Tabernacles/Temples, including numerous references to a mysterious figure known as Metatron, who is given such an exalted position, that at times he is even associated with God Himself.

In the Soncino Zohar glossary, Metatron is given the following two definitions:

The chief of the Chieftains, the power charged with the sustenance of mankind
The head of the "world of creation," called also the "servant" or the "body" of the Shekinah
As seen in the citations below, Metatron also bears a great likeness to Yeshua in that:

The heavenly Temple is His
He is compared to Joshua and to God
He teaches Jews the mysteries of the Torah
He performs an atoning work for Israel

http://www.yashanet.com/studies/revstudy/rev2a.htm

visionary said:
God's Holy name was unspeakable, the Targums, which are the Aramaic translations of the Old Testament, changed all instances where God appeared in person to man. They changed the word Yehovah or Yehovah Elohim, in those cases, to the 'Word' or the memra. (The Aramaic for 'word' is MEMRA)

In his Gospel, the Apostle John tells us that, in the beginning, the Word was with God and the Word was God which we understand is Yeshua.
Definitions:

Memer, or ma'amar מאמר, Strong's 3982 and 3983, an Aramaic word meaning: word, command, appointment.

It comes from the Aramaic, אמר, Strong's 565, 'imrah, or 'emrah (em'-raw). It means commandment, speech, or word. It is the equivalent of logos (λογο&#962, Strong's 3056, in the Greek.

When John wrote his Gospel, he was fully aware of the use of the word memra as an appearance of God to men. It was common usage during his day. When he penned these words, he was using the exact theme as the writers of the Targums did when they translated the text into Aramaic. In fact, if he had written in Aramaic, he would have actually used the word, memra. By doing so he was portraying Yeshua as sharing the nature of God (that is being God) and also as a messenger from God

CherubRam · Sep 22, 2017

SteveCaruso said:
The Greek transliterations and Secunda predate those systems by many hundreds of years.

No one in Christ's time spoke Proto-Hebrew.

Between 200 BC and 100 AD the Hebrew language changed, but not all at once. We know what the Hebrew vowels were by Hebrew being translated into other languages.

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