Wow DANIEL 8:31-14 OVERLOOKED

[MbiaJc]

I have posted on Daniel 8:13-14 before, however here is what I have found out about since then.

Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Antiochus Epiphanes profaned the temple in 175BC. If we uses the day for a year rule, which we learn from Jeremiah, I think. Subtract 175 from 2300=2125AD. When the experts add a year here and subtract a year there, I don't know exactly what they will come up with. However 2125AD[plus or minus a few years] is close to the time the temple will be cleansed. And the end of the host being trodden under foot will happen at the same time.

What your thoughts?

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy MbiaJc,

Greetings. Jesus appears to be alluding to Daniel 8 when he says:
Luke 21:24 (KJV): "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
Compare the similarity of the language:
Daniel 8:13 (KJV): "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?"

Daniel 8:14 (KJV): "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
One major fulfilment of the 2300 days could be from the opening vision of Daniel 8 that depicts the overthrow of the Ram by the He-Goat. Alexander defeated the Persians at Granicus in May BC 334, and at Issus in Nov BC 333. Add 2300 years to this and we arrive at 1967, the Six-Day War, when Jerusalem was once again brought under the control of the Jews.

The conquest by Alexander was military, then political and later the Greeks became intolerant of the religion centred in Jerusalem. The recapture of Jerusalem in 1967 was also military and the term "trodden under foot" seems to allude to the march of an army. The military conquest of 1967 has led to political. The religious reversal is yet future. This may correspond to 2300 years from the start of any Grecian religious antagonism at Jerusalem. How many years after the initial conquest by Alexander in BC334 may not be recorded.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

I have posted on Daniel 8:13-14 before, however here is what I have found out about since then.

Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Antiochus Epiphanes profaned the temple in 175BC. If we uses the day for a year rule, which we learn from Jeremiah, I think. Subtract 175 from 2300=2125AD. When the experts add a year here and subtract a year there, I don't know exactly what they will come up with. However 2125AD[plus or minus a few years] is close to the time the temple will be cleansed. And the end of the host being trodden under foot will happen at the same time.

What your thoughts?

Before I deal with Daniel 8: 13 and 14. I would like to give you something else that you might wish to consider.

The timing.
Daniel, asked about the vision he had just seen.
I want to place the vision of Daniel 8: within the time period it belongs, stipulated by the angel Gabriel.

I will highlight with capitals for emphasis only.

Daniel 8: 16. “And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O son of man: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

We have the angel Gabriel, stating that the vision is concerned with quote, ‘the time of the end,’ unquote.
The angel said it folks, so don’t blame me for what he said.
Now for that reason alone ‘Antiochus Epiphanes who profaned the temple in 175BC’ is a little bit early from the timing stipulated by the angel Gabriel, so that historic event cannot be concerned with or part of the vision.

Also the term ‘2300 days’ is rendered in Aramaic, as
“2300 ereb/boqer.”
Which is translated into English as ‘2300 evening morning’ which cannot be translated as meaning years.
Let me explain with Bible, verses.

Gen 1: 5. And God called the LIGHT DAY, and the darkness he called NIGHT.
And the EVENING/EREB and the MORNING/BOQER were the FIRST DAY.

Gen 1: 8. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the EVENING/EREB and the MORNING/BOQER were the second day.

Dan 8: 14. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred evening/ereb morning/boqer; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

6153 `ereb { eh’-reb}

from 6150; TWOT - 1689a; n m

AV - even 72, evening 47, night 4, mingled 2, people 2, eventide 2, eveningtide + 6256 2, Arabia 1, days 1, even + 996 1, evening + 3117 1, evening + 6256 1, eventide + 6256 1; 137

GK - 6847 { br,[,
1) evening, night, sunset
1a) evening, sunset
1b) night

1242 boqer { bo’-ker}

from 1239; TWOT - 274c; n m

AV - morning 190, morrow 7, day 3, days + 6153 1, early 3; 204

GK - 1331 { rq,Bo
} & 1332 { rq,Bo
1) morning, break of day
1a) morning
1a1) of end of night
1a2) of coming of daylight
1a3) of coming of sunrise
1a4) of beginning of day
1a5) of bright joy after night of distress (fig.)
1b) morrow, next day, next morning.
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

Also you mention quote. “If we use the day for a year rule, which we learn from Jeremiah”

There is a problem with that idea, please let me explain using Ezekiel 4: 5 which others use to do the same thing and then let me follow up with another verse that does the opposite.

Ezekiel 4: 5. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. 6And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have APPOINTED THEE EACH DAY FOR A YEAR.
So for every year of iniquity a days punishment.

Below verse is opposite, to the above verse. Forty days of iniquity and forty years of punishment.
Numbers 14: 34. After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even FORTY DAYS, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even FORTY YEARS, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
Do you see my point?
Now getting back to quote, “If we use the day for a year rule, which we learn from Jeremiah,”
Jeremiah said that Israel, would be taken into captivity for 70 years.

Jeremiah 25: 11. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon SEVENTY YEARS.
12. And it shall come to pass, WHEN SEVENTY YEARS ARE ACCOMPLISHED, I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.
That happened.
Daniel, knew it would happen and started his pleadings in Daniel 9: 2 to 20 he pleads successfully for his people.
And yes Cyrus, turned up on time.

In Daniel 9: Gabriel, speaks to Daniel, and said quote. ‘therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.’
What vision is Daniel, to have skill and understanding in and expected to consider?
Well it must be the last vision he had, placed at ‘the time of the end’ by Gabriel, after all he did say , quote “UNDERSTAND, O son of man: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION” in Daniel 8: 17. Yet Daniel, did not understand it by verse 27 and said so.
So after Daniels supplications for his people Gabriel, appears.
Dan 9: 22. And he informed, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee SKILL and UNDERSTANDING.

23. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I AM COME TO SHEW thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore UNDERSTAND THE MATTER, AND COSIDER THE VISION.

From that moment Gabriel, started talking about the seventy weeks which by the evidence submitted, is all to do with ‘the time of the end’ that concerns the vision which has been made clear by Gabriel.

I won’t go into the seventy weeks explanation because I want to speak of the start and finish of the 2300 ereb boqer.

In the following verses Daniel did not use the word ‘Sacrifice’ it has been added in (italics) now I’m going to remove that word from the following verses.
These verses should read ‘the place of the daily.’
Dan 8: 12. And an host was given against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain which spake, How long the vision the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14.And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12: 11. And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
The place of the daily is the outer court mentioned also in Rev 11:
Rev 11: 1. “And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2. BUT THE COURT which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is GIVEN UNTO THE GENTILES: and the holy city shall they tread under foot FORTY TWO MONTHS.”

Daniel’s visions are for ‘the time of the end’ within the clear times specified and no longer than 2300 EREB BOQER six and a bit years.
There is another number involved within this very number but I will leave it for now.

 

[Micahyah]

Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
(Dan 8:13-14)

Yes, this written for the time of the end. and the transgression of desolation looks to be 9/11. 2300 days from that day, looks like there will be an accounting for the transgression, that it was an inside job.

Go to strong's, daily means regular, daily, continual employment, etc. The italicized sacrifice is an added word.

America has been the sanctuary of Christianity for several hundred years. It was conquered, for all intents and purposes, on 9/11.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes, this written for the time of the end. and the transgression of desolation looks to be 9/11. 2300 days from that day, looks like there will be an accounting for the transgression, that it was an inside job.

Go to strong's, daily means regular, daily, continual employment, etc. The italicized sacrifice is an added word.

America has been the sanctuary of Christianity for several hundred years. It was conquered, for all intents and purposes, on 9/11.

That makes absolutely NO SCRIPTURAL SENSE.

Amos 8:1 Thus the Lord GOD showed me: Behold, a basket of summer fruit. 2 And He said, "Amos, what do you see?" So I said, "A basket of summer fruit." Then the LORD said to me: "The end [#07093] has come upon My people Israel; I will not pass by them anymore. 3 And the songs of the temple Shall be wailing in that day," Says the Lord GOD -- "Many dead bodies everywhere, They shall be thrown out in silence."

 

[NumberOneSon]

America has been the sanctuary of Christianity for several hundred years. It was conquered, for all intents and purposes, on 9/11.

We were no more "conquered" on 9/11 then we were on Pearl Harbor. Can you explain how Christianity or America was conquered "for all intents and purposes"? We were certainly attacked, but not conquered. I find this claim ridiculous.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[MbiaJc]

Howdy MbiaJc,

Greetings. Jesus appears to be alluding to Daniel 8 when he says:
Luke 21:24 (KJV): "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
Compare the similarity of the language:
Daniel 8:13 (KJV): "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?"

Daniel 8:14 (KJV): "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
One major fulfilment of the 2300 days could be from the opening vision of Daniel 8 that depicts the overthrow of the Ram by the He-Goat. Alexander defeated the Persians at Granicus in May BC 334, and at Issus in Nov BC 333. Add 2300 years to this and we arrive at 1967, the Six-Day War, when Jerusalem was once again brought under the control of the Jews.

The conquest by Alexander was military, then political and later the Greeks became intolerant of the religion centred in Jerusalem. The recapture of Jerusalem in 1967 was also military and the term "trodden under foot" seems to allude to the march of an army. The military conquest of 1967 has led to political. The religious reversal is yet future. This may correspond to 2300 years from the start of any Grecian religious antagonism at Jerusalem. How many years after the initial conquest by Alexander in BC334 may not be recorded.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hi Travore,

You make a good point.
The trouble I have with your theory is it predates the little horn in v9. Which was Antoochus Epiphanes, he desecrated the temple in 175BC. This desecrated is the one the questions were asked about in v13. So I don't think it would be appropriate to predate the beginning of the 2300 day = years to 333BC.

 

[MbiaJc]

We were no more "conquered" on 9/11 then we were on Pearl Harbor. Can you explain how Christianity or America was conquered "for all intents and purposes"? We were certainly attacked, but not conquered. I find this claim ridiculous.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[alwayfaithful]

People easily misunderstand the 2300 days. If you read it carefully you will find the 2300 days is the time from when the temple is finished through to its desecration to the appearance of Christ.

Naturally the 2300 days include the 42 months of the Great Tribulation as well as the days preceding the Great Tribulation. Here is the calculation.

2300 - (42x30) = 1040.

1260 days in the first half of the Tribulation - 1040 = 220 days.

The temple will be completed 220 days after the saints are first raptured at the start of the 7 year Tribulation.

"How long shall be the vision [concerning] the continual [burnt-offering], and the transgression that maketh desolate, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?" (Dan. 8.13). That is, including the time of offerings (first half of the Tribulation) and the making desolate (second half of the Tribulation).

Israel is sinning by returning to sacrificial offerings; as the last seven arrives, Antichrist will make a covenant with the children of Israel; but after three and a half years he will break the covenant and set up the idol image which is "the abomination of desolation."

The answer: "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings [and] mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" (v.14).

So you see clearly here that the temple will be cleansed no later than the 1335th day when Israel receives her glory as the center of all nations, but certainly after the 1260th day of the Great Tribulation when Christ appears (Zech. 14.4).

Any questions?

 

[MbiaJc]

People easily misunderstand the 2300 days. If you read it carefully you will find the 2300 days is the time from when the temple is finished through to its desecration to the appearance of Christ.

Naturally the 2300 days include the 42 months of the Great Tribulation as well as the days preceding the Great Tribulation. Here is the calculation.

2300 - (42x30) = 1040.

1260 days in the first half of the Tribulation - 1040 = 220 days.

The temple will be completed 220 days after the saints are first raptured at the start of the 7 year Tribulation.

You give a good argument, however the saints are not resurrected till after the tribulation Matt. 24. Also the tribulation is not but 3.5 yr. The time of Jacobs trouble because God has cut it short.

"How long shall be the vision [concerning] the continual [burnt-offering], and the transgression that maketh desolate, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?" (Dan. 8.13). That is, including the time of offerings (first half of the Tribulation) and the making desolate (second half of the Tribulation).

The questions are in reference to when Antichus Epiphanes profaned the temple in 175BC. I think he caused the daily sacrifice to cease and offered swine upon the alter causing the abomination that makes desolate.
You are right in that the 2300 days last till Jesus comes back at the first resurrection. Only the beheaded ones will be resurrected at this time.

Israel is sinning by returning to sacrificial offerings; as the last seven arrives, Antichrist will make a covenant with the children of Israel; but after three and a half years he will break the covenant and set up the idol image which is "the abomination of desolation."

There will not be a temple built on the mount till Jesus comes back. For Israel to offer sacrifice.

The answer: "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings [and] mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" (v.14).

That time is from 175BC till app. 2125AD

So you see clearly here that the temple will be cleansed no later than the 1335th day when Israel receives her glory as the center of all nations, but certainly after the 1260th day of the Great Tribulation when Christ appears (Zech. 14.4).

The dates given in Daniel 12 are for the end of the 1000yr reign. And the second resurrection when all in the graves will come forth.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The dates given in Daniel 12are for the end of the 1000yr reign. And the second resurrection when all in the graves will come forth.

Proof please.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge [you] therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing[#2015] and His kingdom:..... 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing/brightness[#2015].

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

Yes, this written for the time of the end. and the transgression of desolation looks to be 9/11. 2300 days from that day, looks like there will be an accounting for the transgression, that it was an inside job.

Go to strong's, daily means regular, daily, continual employment, etc. The italicized sacrifice is an added word.

America has been the sanctuary of Christianity for several hundred years. It was conquered, for all intents and purposes, on 9/11.

Dear Brother Micahyah, I understand what you are saying and you are dead right about the time.
However, would you be prepared at least have a look at this with your Bible, and with an open mind and consider these ideas?
I would be in your debt for doing so.

The Bible, is a Jewish book, about their history and those countries that have been, and are, and will be, associated with her for good or bad.
The only written contribution by a Gentile, was made in Daniel 4:
America, is an ally of Israel, along with G.B. the alliance depicted as the ‘rough goat’ of Daniel 8 that comes from the West.

The deadly enemy of Israel, recently (scud missiles used against her) has been Iraq, the shorter horn that comes up first v 3 on the ram that is pushing v 4.
The alliance of G.B.‘LION’ U.S.A. EAGLE’S WINGS of Daniel 7: 5 have dealt with the first horn that comes up.
Daniel, Chapter 7 which is an overview from the lion rising, verse 4 progresses to the everlasting kingdom of God in verse 27.

Daniel’s first vision of chapter 7 to chapter 12 is a progression
Daniel 8 shows how the LION-Britain will be humiliated but America, the (eagle symbol) the greatest power ever to grace the Earth, will not be defeated militarily however the leader, the HORN will be broken.
The rough goat from the West U.S./G.B. defeats the Ram standing by the river Ulai located in Iran, first Iraq the smaller horn as the Bible, says comes up first then the “higher horn Iran, that comes up last’ see Daniel 8: 3. two horns are named as Medo and Persia. Modern names Iraq and Iran, and we can’t lose site of the fact that the vision concerns the time of the end Dan 8: 17 as stated by Gabriel so please don’t accuse me of misconstruing the time factor placed on this event

Dan 8 is a cause and effect situation. The Ram is pushing, and the effect is to cause the ‘rough goat’ Alliance from the West, to react in anger and hammer Iran, into the ground. V 8.
The ram/Iran is going to get a thumping by the river Ulai, modern name Karun, which is in Iran.
In this vision it is made clear that the ram becomes ‘GREAT.’
The rough goat. U.S.A./G.B. ‘Western alliance’ becomes
‘VERY GREAT.’
But the next guy we should watch out for….. the little horn!
The ‘little horn’ becomes ‘EXCEEDINGLY GREAT.’
The little horn is the bleep on the heart monitor and is the one that goes after the remnant and we all know what that means for God’s children.
To ID the little horn, compare what he does to that of Satan, and the penny should drop.
Maybe America, will pull up the drawbridge as Britain’s prime Minister, Tony Blare has warned.
It could happen, if it does the lion/G.B. will lose his eagle’s wings lose heart and be made to stand (without his eagle wings) with the bear/Russia that will fill the political vacuum along with the Leopard but these three countries that rise up will be spell bound by the beast with the mortal wound and become the fourth beast power.
Four ‘prominent horns’ will rise up out of the Gentile nations, but will not have the individual power of the United States. V 4
The fourth beast is a fallen angel he is identified in Gen 3: 15.
These are notable nations mingled with other nations of the iron and clay feet at the time of the finale time of the feet on the Statue. Dan 2: 44, 45.

They are around together at the time of the end and are mentioned in Dan 2: 34, 35, where, during their time the stone is cast upon the statue and the stone grows into a mountain and becomes the everlasting kingdom. See Dan 2: 41 to 45.
In Dan 7: 11, 12 the fourth beast is killed (see also Rev 19: 19, and the others, that’s the LION, BEAR, LEOPARD are left waiting for a battle royal see Revelation 19: 21.
The word ‘Yavan’ used for the ‘rough goat from the West’ in Daniel 8 as I have shown elsewhere can be translated as ‘Gentile nations’ and or ‘Western nations’
I can use the Bible, in detail to back up the above statements but this is not the thread to do it however all these numbers are linked within the 2300 ereb boqer.
The place of the daily is the outside court of the Temple.
Rev 11 starts with Sanctuary speak, please understand that the location is on ‘Mount Zion at the sides of the North.’
Rev 11: 1. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2. But the court which is without the Temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty two months.
As I have said, there is another number hidden within the 2300 ereb boqer by its very name can be worked out and it also fits into the time of the end.

When we look at the time of the vision factored in by the angel Gabriel. and ID of the nations using the biblical symbols Ie eagle’s wings used for the USA and the lion used for Britain, and the bear which is the symbol of Russia, and the leopard which I am not sure about but have my personal view, which I will keep to myself until I have worked it out, and there are named powers involved such as the shorter horn that comes up first, Iraq. Then the second higher horn Iran, that comes up last and has been pushing the West.

Iran pushing the West and the combatants from the west will eventually meet the ram on Iran’s own territory by the river Ulai/Karun.
I am absolutely convinced that what we are seeing is straight out of the book of Daniel.
I have no doubt whatsoever about that.
So where is all this heading?
To the throwing of that stone, against the statue’s feet, which is to usher in the everlasting kingdom of God, that’s where it’s going!
How many things do we have to see before we stop ignoring these events or being so negative about them, there is an urgency about the time we have left isn’t there?

Well, we have another chance….. one more to get it right, only this time Jesus, is not coming back here as a meek and mild God, to let human beings walk all over Him!
When we see Matt 24 and the abomination of desolation verse 15 set up when the place of the daily is taken away (Dan 11: 12) and the outer court of that place (Rev 11: 2) is trampled on for 42 months along with Jerusalem until the end of the Gentile’s, period where the abomination of desolation is removed and the place cleansed after 1290 days and at that time where the tribulation of those 1335 days is over, spoken of in Dan 12: 12 and the beast is killed.

Our hope in our dear Lord Jesus Christ, is to be manifest when we receive the promised blessing at the wedding supper Rev 19: 9 the ushering in of the everlasting kingdom and everlasting life.

The remnant notable nations lion, bear, leopard, are left for a ‘time and season’ brief time to face the warring armies see Rev 19: 14, 15. The beast and false are captured and killed Rev 19: 19, 20. The rest are put to the sword Rev 19: 21.

Satan is taken and placed in the pit by Abaddon for a thousand years till that old serpent is loosed for a short time where those at the second resurrection are destroyed by fire, and old Earth disappears.
A new Earth new life, evermore with our God the Almighty Creator.
See Rev 20: 21:

 

[Micahyah]

I'll give these things time to pray about and look over.

I believe that in the Daniel 11 timeline, the coming against Iran that you bring up, the 2nd horn of the Ram,

Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
(Dan 8:3)

occurs here:

And at the time of the end shall the king of the south [the last king of the south being Ahmadinejad] push at him: and the king of the north [Bush] shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

(Dan 11:40)

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

I'll give these things time to pray about and look over.

I believe that in the Daniel 11 timeline, the coming against Iran that you bring up, the 2nd horn of the Ram,



occurs here:


(Dan 11:40)

That is most interesting Micahyah, I must admit I had not figured that one out.I just sat here reading Daniel 11 again and from that and Daniel 12.
I know that Daniel's last vision is recorded as Dan 11 and 12.
These wars in Daniel 11 and where Daniel 12: 1. is told 'at that time Michael, thy Prince will stand for your people' and mention is made of those written in the book of life and in verse 2 those that sleep in the dust.

If the Middle East, is going to blow up in our faces we are going to have economic consequences. Once it starts it will go on untill the end.
May the Lord help us Micahyah.

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy MbiaJc,

Greetings again.

"The trouble I have with your theory is it predates the little horn in v9. Which was Antoochus Epiphanes, he desecrated the temple in 175BC. This desecrated is the one the questions were asked about in v13. So I don't think it would be appropriate to predate the beginning of the 2300 day = years to 333BC."

I believe that the little horn of the goat is the development of the Eastern Roman Empire, not Antoochus Epiphanes. Pilate as representative of this power stood up against the prince of the host, that is Jesus, and in AD70 Titus overthrew Jerusalem and the Temple:
Daniel 8:11 (KJV): "Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down."

The persecuting and subjugating power is the Grecian / Roman kingdoms during the 2300 years. The significance of the major vision of the ram and the he-goat is that this marked the change from the Persians who had overthrown Babylon and not only allowed the captives of Judah to return, but encouraged the building of Jerusalem and the Temple.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[alwayfaithful]

Alexander the Great died in his thirties at the height of his power. His kingdom was split into 4 parts under 4 generals: Ptolemy 1 of Egypt and Palestine; Seleucus of Babylonia and Syria; Lysimachus of Asia Minor; and Antipater of Macedonia and Greece.

That's why Dan. 8.8 says "The goat became very powerful. But at the height of its power, its large horn was broken off. In the large horn's place grew four prominent horns pointing in the four directions of the earth."

Then Israel ("the glorious land") was attacked by Antiochus IV Epiphanes (the small horn) in the second century B.C.

That's why 8.9 says "From one of the prominent horns came a small horn whose power grew very great. It extends towards the south and the east and toward the glorious land of Israel."

He was the eighth ruler of the Seleucid Empire (Babylonia and Syria). He overthrew the high priest, looted the Temple, and replaced worship of God with a Greek form of worship. A further fulfilment of this prophecy of a powerful horn will occur in their future with the coming of the Antichrist (see 8.17,19,23; 11.36; 2 Thess. 2.4).

The phrase "evenings and mornings" means evening and morning sacrifices, and refers to the time from the desecration of the altar in the Temple by Antiochus IV Epiphanes to the restoration of the Temple worship under Judas Maccabeus in 165 B.C.

That's why Dan. 8.14 says "The other replied, 'It will take twenty-three hundred evenings and mornings; then the Temple will be restored'." The year-day theory fails.

As soon as the Temple is built it is automatically unclean because it is under the false treaty with the Antichrist.

 

[alwayfaithful]

I probably should not have told you about this because Scriptures say: "This vision about the twenty-three hundred evenings and mornings is true. But none of these things will happen for a long time, so do not tell anyone about them yet" (Dan. 8.26).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The dates given in Daniel 12are for the end of the 1000yr reign. And the second resurrection when all in the graves will come forth.I probably should not have told you about this because Scriptures say: "This vision about the twenty-three hundred evenings and mornings is true.

But none of these things will happen for a long time, so do not tell anyone about them yet" (Dan. 8.26).

I wonder if the Jews know about it though.

If they aren't worried about, why should I be.

Luke 21:22 "For these are the Days of Vengeance, that ALL Things which are Written may be Fulfilled.

Ezekiel 38:19 "For in My jealousy [and] in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: 'Surely in that daythere shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel, 20 'so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men who [are] on the face of the earth shall shake at My presence. The mountains shall be thrown down, the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.'

 

[MbiaJc]

Before I deal with Daniel 8: 13 and 14. I would like to give you something else that you might wish to consider.

The timing.
Daniel, asked about the vision he had just seen.
I want to place the vision of Daniel 8: within the time period it belongs, stipulated by the angel Gabriel.

I will highlight with capitals for emphasis only.

Daniel 8: 16. “And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O son of man: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

We have the angel Gabriel, stating that the vision is concerned with quote, ‘the time of the end,’ unquote.
The angel said it folks, so don’t blame me for what he said.
Now for that reason alone ‘Antiochus Epiphanes who profaned the temple in 175BC’ is a little bit early from the timing stipulated by the angel Gabriel, so that historic event cannot be concerned with or part of the vision.

Also the term ‘2300 days’ is rendered in Aramaic, as
“2300 ereb/boqer.”
Which is translated into English as ‘2300 evening morning’ which cannot be translated as meaning years.
Let me explain with Bible, verses.

Gen 1: 5. And God called the LIGHT DAY, and the darkness he called NIGHT.
And the EVENING/EREB and the MORNING/BOQER were the FIRST DAY.

Gen 1: 8. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the EVENING/EREB and the MORNING/BOQER were the second day.

Dan 8: 14. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred evening/ereb morning/boqer; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

6153 `ereb { eh’-reb}

from 6150; TWOT - 1689a; n m

AV - even 72, evening 47, night 4, mingled 2, people 2, eventide 2, eveningtide + 6256 2, Arabia 1, days 1, even + 996 1, evening + 3117 1, evening + 6256 1, eventide + 6256 1; 137

GK - 6847 { br,[,
1) evening, night, sunset
1a) evening, sunset
1b) night

1242 boqer { bo’-ker}

from 1239; TWOT - 274c; n m

AV - morning 190, morrow 7, day 3, days + 6153 1, early 3; 204

GK - 1331 { rq,Bo
} & 1332 { rq,Bo
1) morning, break of day
1a) morning
1a1) of end of night
1a2) of coming of daylight
1a3) of coming of sunrise
1a4) of beginning of day
1a5) of bright joy after night of distress (fig.)
1b) morrow, next day, next morning.
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

Also you mention quote. “If we use the day for a year rule, which we learn from Jeremiah”

There is a problem with that idea, please let me explain using Ezekiel 4: 5 which others use to do the same thing and then let me follow up with another verse that does the opposite.

Ezekiel 4: 5. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. 6And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have APPOINTED THEE EACH DAY FOR A YEAR.
So for every year of iniquity a days punishment.

Below verse is opposite, to the above verse. Forty days of iniquity and forty years of punishment.
Numbers 14: 34. After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even FORTY DAYS, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even FORTY YEARS, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
Do you see my point?
Now getting back to quote, “If we use the day for a year rule, which we learn from Jeremiah,”
Jeremiah said that Israel, would be taken into captivity for 70 years.

Jeremiah 25: 11. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon SEVENTY YEARS.
12. And it shall come to pass, WHEN SEVENTY YEARS ARE ACCOMPLISHED, I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.
That happened.
Daniel, knew it would happen and started his pleadings in Daniel 9: 2 to 20 he pleads successfully for his people.
And yes Cyrus, turned up on time.

In Daniel 9: Gabriel, speaks to Daniel, and said quote. ‘therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.’
What vision is Daniel, to have skill and understanding in and expected to consider?
Well it must be the last vision he had, placed at ‘the time of the end’ by Gabriel, after all he did say , quote “UNDERSTAND, O son of man: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION” in Daniel 8: 17. Yet Daniel, did not understand it by verse 27 and said so.
So after Daniels supplications for his people Gabriel, appears.
Dan 9: 22. And he informed, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee SKILL and UNDERSTANDING.

23. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I AM COME TO SHEW thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore UNDERSTAND THE MATTER, AND COSIDER THE VISION.

From that moment Gabriel, started talking about the seventy weeks which by the evidence submitted, is all to do with ‘the time of the end’ that concerns the vision which has been made clear by Gabriel.

I won’t go into the seventy weeks explanation because I want to speak of the start and finish of the 2300 ereb boqer.

In the following verses Daniel did not use the word ‘Sacrifice’ it has been added in (italics) now I’m going to remove that word from the following verses.
These verses should read ‘the place of the daily.’
Dan 8: 12. And an host was given against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain which spake, How long the vision the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14.And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12: 11. And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
The place of the daily is the outer court mentioned also in Rev 11:
Rev 11: 1. “And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2. BUT THE COURT which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is GIVEN UNTO THE GENTILES: and the holy city shall they tread under foot FORTY TWO MONTHS.”

Daniel’s visions are for ‘the time of the end’ within the clear times specified and no longer than 2300 EREB BOQER six and a bit years.
There is another number involved within this very number but I will leave it for now.

I had to do a little studying on this one, and you are correct. And the EVENING/EREB and the MORNING/BOQER were the FIRST DAY.
So it can't be 2300 Yrs., it is fust 2300 evening and mornings......Thanks.....I will haft to go back to the drawing board.

 

[MbiaJc]

Proof please.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge [you] therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing[#2015] and His kingdom:..... 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing/brightness[#2015].[/

quote]

Your proof is in the first verse of chapter 12 of Daniel. Jacobs trouble doesn't start till Michael stands up. And Christ come immediately after the tribulation of those days Matt. 24.