Would you...

[renaistre]

I would like to sidestep this whole issue by saying that I'm into that courting thing, so no, I wouldn't date someone who was a "born again virgin," or anyone else, for that matter.

Just kidding, sort of.

I'm somewhere in the middle, because I think both sides have valid points. On the one hand, it's true that Christ's sacrifice can wash anyone clean of any sin they might have committed in their life. It's also true that not one single person is completely pure, so in that sense, everyone is in the same boat. However, I think two problems need to be addressed.

One is that the forgiveness of a sin does not automatically remove the consequences of that sin. If I were to give in to pressure from my peers, get drunk, get in a car crash, and kill someone, I could still be forgiven by God if I repented and asked for that forgiveness. But that wouldn't bring back the person I had killed. Similarly, there are things about sex before marriage that can't be undone even if it has been completely forgiven.

This brings me to the second problem, which is that not all sins are equal in their consequences, or, at least in some sense, in their seriousness. I wouldn't say that sex before marriage is anywhere near as serious as killing someone while driving drunk, but I think it is more serious than, say, having impure thoughts. Any sin needs to be repented of and dealt with, but they're not all completely equal as far as how much work needs to be done to deal with them.

The bottom line for me is that physical impurity at some point in the past would not mean automatic "disqualification," but it is something that would make me hesitate, and it would mean an extra layer of complications that would have to be worked out. But if I felt that God was leading me to a girl that was not a virgin, I would have no problem with doing whatever it might take to work out those complications.

BTW, Josh Harris's Boy Meets Girl has a good chapter on this topic. It is very personal because his wife became a Christian in her late teens or early twenties and was not a virgin when they got married. She helped him write the book. The chapter applies whether you subscribe to his ideas on courtship or not, and I think it takes a fair look from all sides of the issue.

 

[Shannonkish]

One is that the forgiveness of a sin does not automatically remove the consequences of that sin. If I were to give in to pressure from my peers, get drunk, get in a car crash, and kill someone, I could still be forgiven by God if I repented and asked for that forgiveness. But that wouldn't bring back the person I had killed. Similarly, there are things about sex before marriage that can't be undone even if it has been completely forgiven.

The difference is, however, that in choosing not to date someone who has had sex, you are choosing to give a consequence to the person... not God.

This brings me to the second problem, which is that not all sins are equal in their consequences, or, at least in some sense, in their seriousness. I wouldn't say that sex before marriage is anywhere near as serious as killing someone while driving drunk, but I think it is more serious than, say, having impure thoughts. Any sin needs to be repented of and dealt with, but they're not all completely equal as far as how much work needs to be done to deal with them.

Scriptural references, please. A sin is a sin is a sin. According to the Bible, in Matt 5:28, simply looking at a man/woman lustfully incites you for commiting adultery. James 4:2 asserts that Lust and Murder are no different in terms of sin. Matt 5:21-22 equates anger with murder.

Sin is sin. No one sin breaks the heart of God more than the other. If I lust after a man, I might as well be having sex with him before marriage... because sin is sin.

The bottom line for me is that physical impurity at some point in the past would not mean automatic "disqualification," but it is something that would make me hesitate, and it would mean an extra layer of complications that would have to be worked out. But if I felt that God was leading me to a girl that was not a virgin, I would have no problem with doing whatever it might take to work out those complications.

Why would you hesitate? Would you hesitate if you found out that a girl used to be a compulsive liar prior to being saved? Would you hesitate if you found out that a girl used to covet prior to being saved?

 

[ivanisavich]

Therefore, if a person entertains lustful thoughts, they are less sexually pure than they would be had they not entertained the thoughts. Therefore, they have "damaged" their sexual purity. (According to your logic, that is.)

You are correct. That is what I've said.

So, given the same scenerio, minus the engagement portion, an amazing woman of God who is passionately seeking God but was promisquous prior to being a Christian is not worthy of being your wife? How can you hold to this, but yet still think that you aren't judging others?

That's a ridiculous statement. Marriage is a huge step to take. I wouldn't want to enter into it with someone who doesn't hold up to my own personal standard....just as I wouldn't want someone else marrying me if she's having to lower her original standard(s) to do so.

Are you perfect? By your own admission, we are guilty of some sin. So why then, is a sexual sin so much more filthy and unworthy than other sins... like having lustful thoughts, lying, etc? That doesn't logically make sense.

Of course it makes sense. Sex is one of the only things we can offer our spouse that they shouldn't have already received from someone else. If someone has wasted that gift on someone before marriage, I wouldn't want to marry them.

Once again, you continue to beat around the bush.

Personally, I don't care who you marry or your standards... I just see it as illogical, and unlikely.

You tell me not to "assume anything about me" when I state that you have a low regard for the importance of sexual purity....and yet when I state that I'd like to marry someone who is sexually pure, you say "well that's unlikely".

You're contradicting yourself.

I am not suggesting that you simply marry any female that has been forgiven... I am suggesting that you shouldn't discount a person because of past mistakes... especially since they have been forgiven of them.

Once again, of course you should make sure that a person meets your own "personal standard". If past "mistakes" tie into how they fit into that standard, then so be it.

Why am I the bad guy, when I don't want to marry someone based om what they've chosen to do in the past. Some things are unimportant when it comes to this....ie....I'm not going to turn down a girl who stole a candy bar when she was 6....but when it comes to something as important as her sexual purity....I'm certainly going to examine her past!

Because of the fact that many couples do not examine such things, their marriages head out like train wrecks waiting to happen.

Here's a poll taken at a Christian forum, asking people if their pre-marital sexual relationships affected their post-marital ones in any way at all:

http://www.themarriagebed.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=254

64% of people said that their pre-marital sexual relationships negatively affected their marriage sex/lives. Why would I be foolish enough not to learn from their mistakes by attempting to avoid those potential problems? Oh wait...that would make me "judgemental"...

If God followed your logic, then there would be no grace at all.

You continue to twist my words, even though I've explained myself many times.

Past sexual relations wouldn't bother me at all on a regular person-to-person level...in fact it would never even cross my mind to think about them when with a member of the opposite sex that I'm not romantically involved with.

On the other hand, knowing past sexual history of a potential marriage partner is extremely important, since it can have great bearing on post-marital relations.

I am learning that you read WAY too much into posts. My post made absolutely NO indication of my agreement or disagreement with your post. All it was, was a question-- nothing more, nothing less.

You were begging the question.

 

[ivanisavich]

This brings me to the second problem, which is that not all sins are equal in their consequences, or, at least in some sense, in their seriousness.

Thank you. That's aaaaallll I'm getting at here. By not dating someone who isn't a virgin, I'm simply sidestepping a whole lot of future (potential) marital problems. It has nothing to do with me being judgemental.

To do otherwise would be a great example of me being naive.

The difference is, however, that in choosing not to date someone who has had sex, you are choosing to give a consequence to the person... not God.

 

[ivanisavich]

Would you hesitate if you found out that a girl used to be a compulsive liar prior to being saved? Would you hesitate if you found out that a girl used to covet prior to being saved?

I realize this question is not directed to me.....but the answer is "YES!" You'd be foolish not to take someone's past into consideration before marrying them.

 

[Shannonkish]

I realize this question is not directed to me.....but the answer is "YES!" You'd be foolish not to take someone's past into consideration before marrying them.

Forgiveness... grace..... where do these fit into your logic/theology?

 

[ivanisavich]

Forgiveness... grace..... where do these fit into your logic/theology?

Just because you forgive someone doesn't mean you should ignore their actions. All actions have consequences....and sadly, negative actions have negative consequences.

If someone does something negative (like losing virginity before marriage) and thus, someone else therefore doesn't want to marry them, they have no one to blame but themselves, since they accepted any potential consquences for their actions by acting negatively in the first place!

What there isn't logic in, is thinking that by "forgiving" you, a person ignores what you did that required "forgiveness" in the first place!

 

[Shannonkish]

forgiveness and grace are not the same things--- you only answered to forgiveness... what about grace?

 

[ivanisavich]

John Smith kills someone but says "I'm sorry!". Should we not send him to jail? If we do, according to you, we're not being forgiving and graceful.

 

[Kristin06]

By posting this question I did not mean to stir up any problems or anger, I just simple wanted some encouragement to know that I am not so called "damaged goods" as I tend to look at myself...I know that I am forgiven but there are consequences down the line, but does that make me any less Christian??? I would hope not...

Someone said that by marrying a virgin it would side step future martial problems...and what would those be?? Cheating?? What I have to say to that is I have NEVER cheating or strayed from any relationship I have ever been in...I am loyal almost to a fault at times and to say that someone who has previously had sex would be tempted is crazy...people change they become better people and their past should not be held agaisnt them!!

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs on this topic, but don't make others feel bad about their opinion....I know that not everyone would want to date someone like me, but I would hope there are guys out there who can look past my sexual past and see me for who I am...a girl who has fallen short but wants to stand up strong again!!

 

[ivanisavich]

Forgiveness comes because of grace.

 

[Shannonkish]

John Smith kills someone but says "I'm sorry!". Should we not send him to jail? If we do, according to you, we're not being forgiving and graceful.

Actually no. you didn't read what I said.

But, I am done with this topic. There is no point in arguing since your mind is made up and you haven't provided enough scripture (or any for that matter) to convince me otherwise.

So let's just agree to disagree.

 

[ivanisavich]

By posting this question I did not mean to stir up any problems or anger, I just simple wanted some encouragement to know that I am not so called "damaged goods" as I tend to look at myself...I know that I am forgiven but there are consequences down the line, but does that make me any less Christian??? I would hope not...

No of course not. All I'm getting at is that actions do have consquences. as you stated. Just becuase we "forgive" someone doesn't mean we should ignore consequences.

Someone said that by marrying a virgin it would side step future martial problems...and what would those be?? Cheating?? What I have to say to that is I have NEVER cheating or strayed from any relationship I have ever been in.

Well I'm happy for you and the strength you've shown in your actions...but there are many people who are not as strong.

 

[Shannonkish]

By posting this question I did not mean to stir up any problems or anger, I just simple wanted some encouragement to know that I am not so called "damaged goods" as I tend to look at myself...I know that I am forgiven but there are consequences down the line, but does that make me any less Christian??? I would hope not...

Kristen, you are beautiful. Think not about what man has to say about you, but rather what God says about you. God says that you are beautifully and wonderfully made! Your sins have been forgiven and you are as pure as anyone that hasn't been in your position. Do not let what some say discourage you.

 

[ivanisavich]

But, I am done with this topic. There is no point in arguing since your mind is made up and you haven't provided enough scripture (or any for that matter) to convince me otherwise.

So let's just agree to disagree.

Well it's your call if you want to leave. I just wish you would have addressed more of my points before doing so. It has nothing to do with "my mind being made up" (as if that's a bad thing)....you've simply not displayed enough reason for me to follow your line of thinking.

 

[Shannonkish]

Well it's your call if you want to leave. I just wish you would have addressed more of my points before doing so. It has nothing to do with "my mind being made up" (as if that's a bad thing)....you've simply not displayed enough reason for me to follow your line of thinking.

I have addressed all of your points... however, your logic doesn't make sense. I have addressed all of your points, however, you appear too "sensative" and read way too much into things to continue the discussion.

As Kristin stated, this was not the purpose of her thread. If you wish to discuss it more, open up a thread in a debateable forum and I will be more than happy to participate.

Again, you haven't provided any scripture to support your opinion (despite my requests), which confuses me, considering your claims to be a Christian.

Therefore, the reason I am ending this discussion are as follows:

1) Your logic is inconsistently applied.
2) Your sensativity to this hinders your ability to discuss the matter without taking some things too personal.
3) You have failed to substaniate your claims, even after requests have been made, by providing scripture.

 

[ivanisavich]

I have addressed all of your points, however, you appear too "sensative" and read way too much into things to continue the discussion.

Name calling now too? Sheesh.

As Kristin stated, this was not the purpose of her thread. If you wish to discuss it more, open up a thread in a debateable forum and I will be more than happy to participate.

I never intended to make it the purpose of the thread....but people challenged my original statements and therefore I have the right to defend them.

Again, you haven't provided any scripture to support your opinion (despite my requests), which confuses me, considering your claims to be a Christian.
...2) Your sensativity to this hinders your ability to discuss the matter without taking some things too personal.
3) You have failed to substaniate your claims, even after requests have been made, by providing scripture.

You've questioned my Christianity, called me "sensitive" and a degrader...and yet I'm making it too personal?

I've provided plenty of logical argument for you, few of which you've addressed. I have no reason to provide biblical verses, since there is no reason for me to in this discussion (since we both agree that adultery is a sin, and since I provided external evidence that it can have a negative effect on marriage and since by commiting adultery, you are losing your virginity pre-maturely and whether-or-not you like to admit it, the consequences of that is a loss of sexual purity). If you are looking for a "thou must marry someone even if you find out they lost their virginity to someone else, or else thoust is judgemental" then I can already tell that you won't ever be happy with whatever I say, no matter how well I back it up.

Also, you've yet to demonstrate how my logic has been "applied inconsistenly", even though I've made it quite clear several times how it is consistent, AND you've contradicted yourself several times (and I've pointed it out) and yet I'm the one with the faulty logic.

Your grasping at straws here at this point, and since you see no need to continue the discussion here, I have no interest in starting a new one with you because I can only see it leading to semantics once again.

 

[Shannonkish]

Name calling now too? Sheesh.

Can you quote where I once called you any name?

I never intended to make it the purpose of the thread....but people challenged my original statements and therefore I have the right to defend them.

My post wasn't suggesting you were at fault, or that anyone else was at fault. I was simply stating that this was a request from the OP.

You've questioned my Christianity, called me "sensitive" and a degrader...and yet I'm making it too personal?

Can you substantiate any of these claims? I have never once stated that you were a degrader. Yes, I have said that you are too sensative... as your first quote in your posts only further helps my case for this.

I've provided plenty of logical argument for you, few of which you've addressed.

I have addressed your logic. I am growing weary of your circular arguments.

I have no reason to provide biblical verses, since there is no reason for me to in this discussion (since we both agree that adultery is a sin, and since I provided external evidence that it can have a negative effect on marriage and since by commiting adultery, you are losing your virginity pre-maturely and whether-or-not you like to admit it, the consequences of that is a loss of sexual purity).

Interesting... so is this simply a cop out because you have no scripture to substantiate your claims? Or is this just simply your way of stating that you don't need to include what the Bible says in your decisions?

If you are looking for a "thou must marry someone even if you find out they lost their virginity to someone else, or else thoust is judgemental" then I can already tell that you won't ever be happy with whatever I say, no matter how well I back it up.

That's actually not what I am looking for. What I am looking for is some sort of logic. I would like to understand where your thoughts are coming from, because what you are claiming, does not appear to come from what I see in the Bible. any scripture to substantiate your claims would be helpful.

Also, you've yet to demonstrate how my logic has been "applied inconsistenly", even though I've made it quite clear several times how it is consistent, AND you've contradicted yourself several times (and I've pointed it out) and yet I'm the one with the faulty logic.

Actually, I have done this. But, it doesn't matter because you haven't paid any attention to it. You use the same arguments for everything, even when they are refuted.

Your grasping at straws here at this point, and since you see no need to continue the discussion here, I have no interest in starting a new one with you because I can only see it leading to semantics once again.

Your choice.

 

[ivanisavich]

I feel the need to band my head against a wall once again.

 

[Shannonkish]

Have fun!