would you still be a Christian...

[Tina W]

Well, it's not that this person didn't intend for it to be "forever". This may not be knowledge that he had, rather it was some type of knowledge YOU had. Some type of foreknowledge. Perhaps in his mind, he had no intention of ever leaving you, etc. But you ... on the other hand, you had some type of foreknowledge he would leave you. This may not be known to him though. I suppose you could look at it both ways ... perhaps he also had the foreknowledge, or perhaps he didn't.

Would you do it under either of those circumstances ?

Also, consider the idea that your own love may do something for this person, even though they may leave you. Let's say in this scenario, they too knew that at some point in the future they would leave you. But between now and then, there was an opportunity that your marriage ... or let's just say your devotion to them in some form ... benefited them somehow. What then ?

Okay no I wouldn't be able to do it if I knew it wasn't going to last. I wouldn't be able to fully commit myself to him knowing before hand that he was going to leave. I have to at least believe it's forever to commit myself like that.

 

[TillICollapse]

Okay no I wouldn't be able to do it if I knew it wasn't going to last. I wouldn't be able to fully commit myself to him knowing before hand that he was going to leave. I have to at least believe it's forever to commit myself like that.

Okay then follow up question ... if you were in the other's shoes, and let's say you were not aware of the foreknowledge that you would one day leave/etc ... but the other person WAS ... would you still want a relationship, choosing to basically not believe the foreknowledge and "go for it" anyways ?

 

[Tina W]

Okay then follow up question ... if you were in the other's shoes, and let's say you were not aware of the foreknowledge that you would one day leave/etc ... but the other person WAS ... would you still want a relationship, choosing to basically not believe the foreknowledge and "go for it" anyways ?

If I was really in love with him, then I would not believe the foreknowledge, I would think he was mistaken because I know myself and it would take a WHOLE lot, like my life or my future kids life would have to be in danger to make me ever leave him so I would try to convince him that he was mistaken or maybe misinterpreted the foreknowledge.

 

[Tree of Life]

If you found out there was no heaven?

If you found out, let's say through divine revelation, that there was no such thing as heaven or hell, we all just die and that's pretty much the end of it, for you at least, would you still believe in Christ?

I don't know if this is the right section for this question. If it isn't, I don't mind it being moved to the appropriate subforum.

According to Paul, if there is no resurrection then our faith is useless. We may as well eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die. (1 Corinthians 15)

 

[TillICollapse]

If I was really in love with him, then I would not believe the foreknowledge, I would think he was mistaken because I know myself and it would take a WHOLE lot, like my life or my future kids life would have to be in danger to make me ever leave him so I would try to convince him that he was mistaken or maybe misinterpreted the foreknowledge.

So on the one hand, you acknowledge that if you had the foreknowledge, you would not commit to the other person. However you also acknowledge that if you were the other person, you would not believe the foreknowledge and would still seek to commit.

So what fuels belief and choice in this instance ? Since the same person (i.e. you) can hold two contradictory responses to a single input, what is the underlying fuel which resolves the dissonance ?

Also, arguably ... what's interesting is that there is a line the separates where one person would be willing to let another hurt out of self preservation, yet they would not want the same thing done to them. What, if anything, could cause you to cross that line and actually allow your own-self to hurt in order to prevent the other from hurting ?

 

[StephanieSomer]

I agree Stephanie. Which denomination are you, because this is considered unusual doctrine, these days.

I don't currently align with any denomination. I was raised RCC. Our family left there when I was a teenager and we attended AG. I attended an AG college for 2 years. Since then, I've been in various churches. The last one I went to was Presbyterian. I wish I COULD find a church home, but people as myself aren't welcome in very many congregations. The only church I've attended in the last 5 years that I could actually feel somewhat at home doctrinally was the Presbyterian congregation I visited.

 

[Tina W]

So on the one hand, you acknowledge that if you had the foreknowledge, you would not commit to the other person. However you also acknowledge that if you were the other person, you would not believe the foreknowledge and would still seek to commit.

So what fuels belief and choice in this instance ? Since the same person (i.e. you) can hold two contradictory responses to a single input, what is the underlying fuel which resolves the dissonance ?

Also, arguably ... what's interesting is that there is a line the separates where one person would be willing to let another hurt out of self preservation, yet they would not want the same thing done to them. What, if anything, could cause you to cross that line and actually allow your own-self to hurt in order to prevent the other from hurting ?

Oh okay I see what you're saying. Those are some interesting things to think about. Yeah that's a hard decision. Now that I think about it, I think I would still give him a chance then, the same way I would still want to be given a chance. Maybe the foreknowledge is not written in stone and it can be changed. I wouldn't want to hurt him, and I wouldn't want to be hurt. I would still give him a chance and hope and pray that the foreknowledge can be changed, that it's not set in stone.

 

[TillICollapse]

Oh okay I see what you're saying. Those are some interesting things to think about. Yeah that's a hard decision. Now that I think about it, I think I would still give him a chance then, the same way I would still want to be given a chance. Maybe the foreknowledge is not written in stone and it can be changed. I wouldn't want to hurt him, and I wouldn't want to be hurt. I would still give him a chance and hope and pray that the foreknowledge can be changed, that it's not set in stone.

Hmmm ....
Interesting responses Thanks

 

[Tina W]

Hmmm ....
Interesting responses Thanks

No problem, you gave me some interesting things to think about.

 

[TillICollapse]

No problem, you gave me some interesting things to think about.

Hopefully. And plus, it helps me to see how others may think about such things

 

[Soul2Soul]

If you found out there was no heaven?

If you found out, let's say through divine revelation, that there was no such thing as heaven or hell, we all just die and that's pretty much the end of it, for you at least, would you still believe in Christ?

I don't know if this is the right section for this question. If it isn't, I don't mind it being moved to the appropriate subforum.

I am not sure how I would find out that there is no heaven - given that I understand it's existence through Divine revelation .... e.g. Scripture (the Bible), Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

To me any belief/faith in Jesus would be (spiritually) irrelevant if heaven and eternal life do not exist ..... since my understanding is that the crux of the (Christian) faith is about salvation/eternal life through Jesus Christ.

 

[agua]

I don't currently align with any denomination. I was raised RCC. Our family left there when I was a teenager and we attended AG. I attended an AG college for 2 years. Since then, I've been in various churches. The last one I went to was Presbyterian. I wish I COULD find a church home, but people as myself aren't welcome in very many congregations. The only church I've attended in the last 5 years that I could actually feel somewhat at home doctrinally was the Presbyterian congregation I visited.

Yes I've had simialr experience. I've recently been studying with a Church group recommended by a USA friend and they seem really good, with solid Biblical teaching and exegesis methods. If you'd like to know who they are let me know, I recommend looking into them.

Oh one thing though that might put a spanner in the works here, are you immortal souler and ECT ( I'm guessing yes from Presbeterian connection )?

 

[Ada Lovelace]

I don't currently align with any denomination. I was raised RCC. Our family left there when I was a teenager and we attended AG. I attended an AG college for 2 years. Since then, I've been in various churches. The last one I went to was Presbyterian. I wish I COULD find a church home, but people as myself aren't welcome in very many congregations. The only church I've attended in the last 5 years that I could actually feel somewhat at home doctrinally was the Presbyterian congregation I visited.

From what I've observed Anglican churches are friendlier to the LGBT community, but I can't speak with personal experience about it. I've just noticed that there are more gay and transgendered people within the congregation, and the sense of them belonging there as much as everyone else. I don't know if it would feel like home to you doctrinally but you might find a home of believers who'd welcome you.

I haven't personally met these people because I've only begun attending this church recently, but they might be able to help you locate a church in your area if you're interested:
GALAS (LGBT Ministry) - All Saints Church

My brain is fuzzy from sleepiness so I could be mistaken on my memory about your past posts, so if this is totally coming in from the left field I'm sorry.

 

[keith99]

I don't currently align with any denomination. I was raised RCC. Our family left there when I was a teenager and we attended AG. I attended an AG college for 2 years. Since then, I've been in various churches. The last one I went to was Presbyterian. I wish I COULD find a church home, but people as myself aren't welcome in very many congregations. The only church I've attended in the last 5 years that I could actually feel somewhat at home doctrinally was the Presbyterian congregation I visited.

Just change one letter.

The MCC is very gay friendly.

Metropolitan Community Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hmm perhaps not a surprise that a local Gay mens group has rented space for once a month meetings and presentations at a local MCC Church for several years.

 

[thispoorman]

You bet I would.

I'd take it a step further: with so much bad hell-bent theology, it's better to assume there isn't a heaven and take Jesus' statements of the kingdom of God, etc., as indications that were clearly meant in the New Testament: referring to this life right now -- and then take this understanding and act as if there were no afterlife. Why? Because this would make Christianity consider the need to change right now in this life, leading to a much better world, rather than a world of believers who don't really think they need to really change because of a bad understanding of grace and the belief that the real change happens exclusively after death.

I know this is against Paul's words, as one poster put above. But I think my attitude would be a needed counterbalance to so much bad theology, which ultimately makes living this life meaningless at most or at least secondary to a future at least. Either case we're missing Jesus' message: that the Kingdom of God, and therefore salvation, start right here and extend out after death.

I didn't even go on to read any other posts after yours, Received; you said exactly what I would have said if you hadn't said it first.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Just change one letter.

The MCC is very gay friendly.

Metropolitan Community Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hmm perhaps not a surprise that a local Gay mens group has rented space for once a month meetings and presentations at a local MCC Church for several years.

Yes, it is. But, I'm not gay, I'm trans. There are some trans individuals in the local MCC church. I went there for half a dozen services or so. But, their doctrine is too far from mine. It just didn't feel like home.

The Presbyterian church I attended locally is also an affirming congregation. I've only been there once, but I was well received. Transportation is an issue atm.

 

[Received]

I didn't even go on to read any other posts after yours, Received; you said exactly what I would have said if you hadn't said it first.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

So let's take it a step further.

Can you think of any scriptural examples where a person willingly devoted themselves to someone, or loved someone, even though that person betrayed them, or had ill will against them from the start, or they knew it was likely that person would not value or cherish what they did for them ? Or can you think of any examples where the person had foreknowledge that the object of their love would later leave them, or perhaps even harm them ... yet they loved them anyways and/or still devoted themselves to them ?

Consider also God Himself, as well as Christ on earth ... did they have any foreknowledge concerning the objects of their love which may have involved those people rejecting them, leaving them, turning them away, or perhaps even harming them ... yet choose to love them anyways and still be committed and devoted to them for some reason ?

Have you read the book of Hosea?

Hos 1:2-3 When the LORD first spoke through Hosea, the LORD said to Hosea, "Go, take to yourself a wife of harlotry and have children of harlotry; for the land commits flagrant harlotry, forsaking the LORD." So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.
NASU

Hos 3:1-3
Then the LORD said to me, "Go again, love a woman who is loved by her husband, yet an adulteress, even as the LORD loves the sons of Israel, though they turn to other gods and love raisin cakes." So I bought her for myself for fifteen shekels of silver and a homer and a half of barley. Then I said to her, "You shall stay with me for many days. You shall not play the harlot, nor shall you have a man; so I will also be toward you."
NASU

 

[Gottservant]

If there was no Heaven, saints would be roughly the same (but sinners would be unbearable).

 

[TillICollapse]

Have you read the book of Hosea?

Hos 1:2-3 When the LORD first spoke through Hosea, the LORD said to Hosea, "Go, take to yourself a wife of harlotry and have children of harlotry; for the land commits flagrant harlotry, forsaking the LORD." So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.
NASU

Hos 3:1-3
Then the LORD said to me, "Go again, love a woman who is loved by her husband, yet an adulteress, even as the LORD loves the sons of Israel, though they turn to other gods and love raisin cakes." So I bought her for myself for fifteen shekels of silver and a homer and a half of barley. Then I said to her, "You shall stay with me for many days. You shall not play the harlot, nor shall you have a man; so I will also be toward you."
NASU

Yes I've read Hosea