would you still be a Christian...

[brinny]

Originally Posted by TillICollapse View Post
This thread makes me think:

Would you (anyone wishing to respond) become a spouse to someone and devote yourself to them and even let yourself love them if possible, knowing that they had nothing material to offer and never would (i.e. possessions, financial security, etc) ? In other words, a relationship based solely on devotion or love, and NO expectation of any kind of material security or gain ? I would think this wouldn't be that radical of a question to ask ... however ...

Now to add a twist to this ... would you enter into a devoted/spousal relationship with such a person, KNOWING that at some point in the future they would choose to be with someone else and no longer want to be with you ? But you could at least enjoy them for a time, glean whatever you were going to glean, etc ... but that ultimately it was going to end in such a way ?

Originally Posted by brinny View Post
It would be a one-sided devotion? If so, what specifically would one be devoting themselves "to"?

Thank you kindly.

I left it vague, because people devote themselves to others and love others for a wide variety of reasons. IOW, the answer to that question depends on the one asking it.

If you met someone whom you would WANT to marry, devote yourself to them, etc ... most people have some sort of set of ideals in mind when they imagine such a thing. Or a check list, or something they envision. Whomever the person is you would be considering to devote yourself to, has already done something for you, passed some muster, caused you to love them or want to devote yourself to them in the first place. That's the vague thing which would be specific to each person.

It may or may not be one-sided ... that's a perspective which depends on what causes the person answering the question to want to be devoted to another, or love them, in the first place.

It sounds empty and "fleeting". If so, why would one "devote" themselves to something likened to wind or sand going through one's fingers, that has no depth and just possibly is a bit "masochistic"?

Thank you kindly.

 

[TheImmortalJellyfish]

That's funny, since God has directly ordered me to do some things, and directly revealed a thing or so to me from time to time. So by my experience I reject your catagorical statement that there is no divine revelation if it is not found in the Word of God.

Have you never heard a pastor assert that God gave him guidance for a sermon topic?

That's an entirely different subject, Paul. What you're describing is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and it is very much real. But that's not "prophecy" in the sense that suddenly God will divinely reveal to someone that His Word is incorrect, which is what this OP is suggesting.

 

[BL2KTN]

I love Thomas Jefferson's The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth because it places the emphasis on how to model your life after the teachings of Christ. I prefer putting all thoughts and energy into this life.

And what was Thomas Jefferson? A deist.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Thank you all for your replies. I'm going to try to reply back to each of you over the course of the weekend so please, bear with me.

Thanks again!

 

[TillICollapse]

It sounds empty and "fleeting". If so, why would one "devote" themselves to something likened to wind or sand going through one's fingers, that has no depth and just possibly is a bit "masochistic"?

Thank you kindly.

It depends on the person.

One may choose to love another person, and devote themselves to them ... for them. Knowing they cannot be repaid, or may not get a lot in return, or even that their gift of love may be returned at some point ... or wasted for that matter. Such a person may still love the other person and be devoted to them, even without the expectation of receiving, or the possibility of being devalued.

 

[brinny]

It depends on the person.

One may choose to love another person, and devote themselves to them ... for them. Knowing they cannot be repaid, or may not get a lot in return, or even that their gift of love may be returned at some point ... or wasted for that matter. Such a person may still love the other person and be devoted to them, even without the expectation of receiving, or the possibility of being devalued.

See post #21, your first post i quoted, 2nd paragraph. What you describe is like heading for the edge of a waterfall, in that it's a sort of self-destructive-like endeavor. That isn't love. It verges on masochism, for the one heading for the edge of the waterfall neither loves the one they say they do, and most importantly, do not love themselves but quite possibly hate themselves. It is the epitome of a lack of wisdom and a time bomb just waitin' to happen.

Thank you kindly.

 

[brinny]

Thank you all for your replies. I'm going to try to reply back to each of you over the course of the weekend so please, bear with me.

Thanks again!

You are most welcome. Interesting thread.

 

[agua]

St. Paul said that if the dead are not raised, our faith is in vain. So no, I would not be a Christian. I would just conclude Jesus was a guy with good intentions that died and following his commandments might be nice, but something would be missing... spiritual power. And human nature being what it is, such a faith would be anemic and impotent to deal with the spiritual hunger found in the human heart.

Brother said something there !

 

[agua]

That's funny, since God has directly ordered me to do some things, and directly revealed a thing or so to me from time to time. So by my experience I reject your catagorical statement that there is no divine revelation if it is not found in the Word of God.

Have you never heard a pastor assert that God gave him guidance for a sermon topic?

Yes Paul, and I recall the discipline Yahweh mets out ( or allows ) for our growth and purification, which requires direct revelation/interaction from Yahweh or his chosen vehicles.

 

[talquin]

If you found out there was no heaven?

If you found out, let's say through divine revelation, that there was no such thing as heaven or hell, we all just die and that's pretty much the end of it, for you at least, would you still believe in Christ?

I don't know if this is the right section for this question. If it isn't, I don't mind it being moved to the appropriate subforum.

Since a negative can't be proven, how could one find out there is no heaven?

 

[Emmyc]

Yes, definitely. I want to feel the touch of the devine in this life and have a relationship with a creator who loves me. It also wouldn't change any of Jesus's message about the love of God or how we should love one another, help the poor, not take revenge etc.
I would be sad tho, and afraid of death. (I have always been afraid of the concept of not existing)

 

[TillICollapse]

See post #21, your first post i quoted, 2nd paragraph. What you describe is like heading for the edge of a waterfall, in that it's a sort of self-destructive-like endeavor. That isn't love. It verges on masochism, for the one heading for the edge of the waterfall neither loves the one they say they do, and most importantly, do not love themselves but quite possibly hate themselves. It is the epitome of a lack of wisdom and a time bomb just waitin' to happen.

Thank you kindly.

That's why I left it vague, so that if someone wanted to answer the question, they could do so basing it on what such a circumstance meant to them.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny View Post
See post #21, your first post i quoted, 2nd paragraph. What you describe is like heading for the edge of a waterfall, in that it's a sort of self-destructive-like endeavor. That isn't love. It verges on masochism, for the one heading for the edge of the waterfall neither loves the one they say they do, and most importantly, do not love themselves but quite possibly hate themselves. It is the epitome of a lack of wisdom and a time bomb just waitin' to happen.

Thank you kindly.

That's why I left it vague, so that if someone wanted to answer the question, they could do so basing it on what such a circumstance meant to them.

Would you care to elaborate?

Thank you kindly.

 

[TillICollapse]

Would you care to elaborate?

Thank you kindly.

I already did elaborate as to why I left it vague ... http://www.christianforums.com/t7876137-2/#post67386713

I left it vague, because presenting a circumstance with something like "love" and "marriage" etc ... those concepts mean something different to different people, and why someone would or would not devote themselves to someone, or what someone would or would not call "love". Based on a large variety of factors that shape the unique individual. I left it vague, so that when a person responded to the question, their own answer would be a reflection of themselves as to how they view love, what to love and not to love, when to love, whom to love and why ... etc. All the possible reflections such things may bring up.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny View Post
Would you care to elaborate?

Thank you kindly.

I already did elaborate as to why I left it vague ... http://www.christianforums.com/t7876137-2/#post67386713

I left it vague, because presenting a circumstance with something like "love" and "marriage" etc ... those concepts mean something different to different people, and why someone would or would not devote themselves to someone, or what someone would or would not call "love". Based on a large variety of factors that shape the unique individual. I left it vague, so that when a person responded to the question, their own answer would be a reflection of themselves as to how they view love, what to love and not to love, when to love, whom to love and why ... etc. All the possible reflections such things may bring up.

Perhaps your point about "love" would be understood more clearly if you shared your definition of what your view/definition of "love" is.

Thank you kindly.

 

[RDKirk]

If you found out there was no heaven?

If you found out, let's say through divine revelation, that there was no such thing as heaven or hell, we all just die and that's pretty much the end of it, for you at least, would you still believe in Christ?

I don't know if this is the right section for this question. If it isn't, I don't mind it being moved to the appropriate subforum.

The apostle Paul has already provided the answer to that:

What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” -- 1 Corinthians 15.

I'd point out: Believing that Jesus existed does not make one a "Christian"--as spoken of in the New Testament. Nor does believing he was a valid philosopher and attempting to live by his philosophy of life make one a Christian.

Believing in the resurrection is essential to being the "Christian" that the New Testament speaks of.

 

[TillICollapse]

Perhaps your point about "love" would be understood more clearly if you shared your definition of what your view/definition of "love" is.

Thank you kindly.

But that's why I didn't define love lol ... and why I left it vague. So the person answering could do so in the context of what it meant to *them*, not to me.

 

[Arcangl86]

I don't think the existence of heaven or hell really matters at the heart of it. I didn't believe in heaven for a while, but I was still very much a Christian. The resurrection is the important thing, not some kind of divine waiting room.

 

[Athena18]

This is certainly a thought provoking question.
My answer is definitely YES! I don't believe, serve and love Jesus based upon any type of promise of reward or fear of ceasing to exist. Fear based faith isn't faith to me.
I believe in Jesus by faith.
That being said, if such a thing were true, I would question what my purpose is on earth at this point in time in History. Thankfully, the bible gives me clear instructions of my purpose and to me that is to fulfill the great commission. Simply to share the good news.
There is a heaven and it most certainly is not a place to fear. The very fact that I believe there is a chance of eternal separation from God spurs me on to share Jesus free gift with people.
I'm not sure I would feel such a burden for those who are lost if I didn't have that passionate belief.

 

[Juelrei]

If you found out there was no heaven?

If you found out, let's say through divine revelation, that there was no such thing as heaven or hell, we all just die and that's pretty much the end of it, for you at least, would you still believe in Christ?

Your suggested question is answerable by Jeremiah 23:28, "What does straw have in common with grain?"

Just to be clear. The straw is what you have said, the grain is what God says in His Word.
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It is through divine revelation that the entire Bible was written. (every scripture is God breathed, inspired of God, 2 Tm.3:16).
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So anyone who says that there is no heaven, by mere words of unbelief, or by false revelation.. it is therefore not a grain of truth in it.

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