Would you still be a Christian without the incentive of Heaven?

Anguspure · Aug 28, 2017

RDKirk said:
Who came up with the "truly love God in a 'selfless' way" myth?

Not Jesus. Jesus never spoke in terms of there being no satisfactory end goal. Not ever.

Jesus must have known what is in a man.

RDKirk · Aug 28, 2017

Anguspure said:
But then, to press the point, if being moral wasn't your thing then why would you even bother with that?

What is "moral?"

The Christian ethic is deontology (the same ethic, in fact, as a soldier--which is why it was a soldier whose faith astounded Christ above any other person He'd met).

Morality for a Christian is obedience to Christ.

Morality for someone else is something else other than obedience to Christ.

Godlovesmetwo · Aug 28, 2017

RDKirk said:
Who came up with the "truly love God in a 'selfless' way" myth?

I did.
I'm only human and can only understand love on human terms. I know from experience that the best kind of love is not possessive. It lets the person free. The way God loves us I guess, by allowing us free will.

Godlovesmetwo · Aug 28, 2017

RDKirk said:
Morality for a Christian is obedience to Christ.

Obedience to God the Father by following Christ?

Anguspure · Aug 28, 2017

RDKirk said:
What is "moral?"

The Christian ethic is deontology (the same ethic, in fact, as a soldier--which is why it was a soldier whose faith astounded Christ above any other person He'd met).

Morality for a Christian is obedience to Christ.

Morality for someone else is something else other than obedience to Christ.

I prefer the thinking that what is moral describes an objective standard of values and duties that are necessarily prescribed by the nature of the Creator.
So if I stand in breach of morality on one point then I may as well breach whatever else seems fun to me. The outcome will be the same.
Without Christ I am a despicable person I know, but with Him it is to His glory.

JoeP222w · Aug 28, 2017

I am a Christian solely by the grace of God in Jesus Christ, by faith alone, in Him alone. He is the one who saved me, He is the one who perseveres me.

I am not a Christian because of an excellent sales pitch for Heaven, but because of the kindness, grace, mercy and love of God towards me.

Godlovesmetwo · Aug 28, 2017

JoeP222w said:
because of an excellent sales pitch for Heaven

"Yes you my friend can have it all, the whole package. Not just 3 nights in a 5 star Hotel. Oh no, you can have Eternal with a capital E, life with God the Father Almighty. And all I want from you is .....
you! It's a bargain! "

RDKirk · Aug 28, 2017

bettercallpaul said:
Obedience to God the Father by following Christ?

Christ is God. Christ specifically said, "Obey my commandments."

RDKirk · Aug 28, 2017

A reach for hyperrighteousness.

thetruth0 · Aug 28, 2017

bettercallpaul said:
Meaning that you could only enjoy limited life with the Lord on this Earth. No eternal life, just this one.
For some people, some Christians, it seems Heaven has already started for them here. They walk so close to God everyday. They are in love. And I respect that a lot. I think these people aren't so much focussed on the reward of heaven. They love the Lord so much now, they are just happy to serve Him now in this earthly life. Their reward is now.
I'm thinking that is a healthy approach. Because if our motivation to follow the Commandments and serve the Lord, is an extrinsic reward like Heaven, we are not really motivated by love. We are motivated by what is in it for us.

I cannot believe what i just read. And the responses too from people that call themselves Christians. Have you forgotten that we are in the fallen nature? Therefore, Heaven is not a reward, it is where we come from. Even the New Earth will be a Heavens World. The earth we live in now is a result of the fall. I must say i am shocked that people who call themselves Christians would say: Maybe we should focus on the now.

It is written: seek ye first the kingdom of GOD and HIS righteousness, and all these shall be added unto you. The same GOD said: I am not of this world. I am from above, ye are from beneath. And, no man has ascended to Heaven, except he that descended from Heaven, even the Son of Man which is in Heaven.

Thus, Heaven is our home. We are strangers in this land, Egypt. We are strangers in Sodom. We do not belong in the fallen nature. So to even suggest that one is only a Christian because Heaven is an incentive is revealing a lack of knowledge of what the GOD has been saying since the foundation of the world.

SPF · Aug 28, 2017

bettercallpaul said:
Meaning that you could only enjoy limited life with the Lord on this Earth. No eternal life, just this one.
For some people, some Christians, it seems Heaven has already started for them here. They walk so close to God everyday. They are in love. And I respect that a lot. I think these people aren't so much focussed on the reward of heaven. They love the Lord so much now, they are just happy to serve Him now in this earthly life. Their reward is now.
I'm thinking that is a healthy approach. Because if our motivation to follow the Commandments and serve the Lord, is an extrinsic reward like Heaven, we are not really motivated by love. We are motivated by what is in it for us.

I think both Jesus and the Apostle Paul would take real exception to the thinking in this OP.

Matthew 6:20 - But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal.

Philippians 1:21,23 - For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better...

For Christians, the reason that we can have joy in the midst of trials, and peace in the midst of persecution is because of the hope we have in Christ. What is the hope we have in Christ? It's that Christ will return! It's that Christ will redeem and restore the totality of creation!

I think the OP has it backwards, people don't spend enough time thinking about the future. We spend too much time thinking about our temporary and momentary circumstances.

Randy Alcorn has written IMO, the best book on the topic of HEAVEN. I would highly recommend that everyone click the link and get a copy. Heaven will not be boring, we will not be transformed into robots where we lose our personality.

When we accepted Christ, we were given new hearts with a natural inclination towards Christ. We no longer have a natural inclination towards the flesh, but towards Christ. Sanctification is the daily process by which we become more like Christ. That process will not be completed until Christ returns. For now, while we want to love our neighbors more selflessly, we fail. While we don't want to be envious, or covet, or be jealous of what our neighbors have, we fail. But when Christ returns and we are given redeemed bodies where the husk of flesh that remains is gone - we will finally be able to love as we want to now, but fail.

Other people's joy will only serve to enhance our own. Sin, no longer having a foothold in our lives will allow us to treat others how we want to now, but fail.

Go get Alcorn's book, Heaven.

Living Soul · Aug 28, 2017

Truth be told, I would have to say no. If God didn't make the contract to save my soul for believing in His son (John 3:16), I wouldn't be a Christian anymore than I'm a Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, or any other religion today. I believe everything in Christianity stems from that contract.

Good question brother! Hope I didn't sound too harsh in my answer. Definitely did not mean to

Emli · Aug 28, 2017

I would. I remember one of the first things I ever said to God, because I was such a mess back in those days, no self worth, barely any willingness to even live this life, and even less live forever, was that He didn't need to send me to Heaven, as long as I could follow Jesus all my life here on Earth.

He has since then changed my mind, two and a half years later, and I've learnt to see things a lot differently. Heaven is being with our Lord forever, and it's not just a reward. I don't want the rewards, but I do want to spend an eternity with the God who loves us. But I would still walk with Him fully in this life even without Heaven, just to see His glory happen in my life and in the lives of others. Nothing else is worth anything any longer, once you have felt His love and seen His light.

But I have learnt how to set my mind on things above, and how to live this life for eternity.

Shempster · Aug 28, 2017

Paul of Eugene OR said:
Yes. It shall be made up to them. But it is not good that any should suffer.

Ya, Paul this is a tricky area because many innocent people and children suffer through no fault of their own.
If you are one who subscribes to the notion that everything that happens is allowed to happen by God.
So what about the innocent? There are a few explanations but they would go beyond the parameters of this forum. And of course, they could be wrong.
I have seen many report videos of the evil the innocent endure in Syria, South Sudan, North Korea, etc.

I cannot imagine the scene where evil is simply random and that God watches and yet does not act in rheir defense. It almost HAS to be that these things happen for a specific reason.

disciple1 · Aug 28, 2017

bettercallpaul said:
Meaning that you could only enjoy limited life with the Lord on this Earth. No eternal life, just this one.
For some people, some Christians, it seems Heaven has already started for them here. They walk so close to God everyday. They are in love. And I respect that a lot. I think these people aren't so much focussed on the reward of heaven. They love the Lord so much now, they are just happy to serve Him now in this earthly life. Their reward is now.
I'm thinking that is a healthy approach. Because if our motivation to follow the Commandments and serve the Lord, is an extrinsic reward like Heaven, we are not really motivated by love. We are motivated by what is in it for us.

John chapter 17 verse 3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

You start to know him by studying the bible.

RDKirk · Aug 28, 2017

disciple1 said:
John chapter 17 verse 3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

You start to know him by studying the bible.

I'm not sure about that, because Jesus never gave such weight to the bible, rather upon face-to-face dialog and observation.

HowRU? · Aug 28, 2017

1 Cor 15:19, "If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied." This holy scripture, dictated by the Apostle Paul, but breathed by the Holy Spirit is revealing. The Apostle Paul endured quite a bit of suffering.
Salvation is free, but being Jesus' disciple is costly. Have I really counted the cost of following Jesus? I myself have been pondering this idea a lot lately. I would love it if people would pray for me on this issue.
As for the OP's question...I just don't know.

disciple1 · Aug 28, 2017

RDKirk said:
I'm not sure about that, because Jesus never gave such weight to the bible, rather upon face-to-face dialog and observation.

RDKirk said:
I'm not sure about that, because Jesus never gave such weight to the bible

John chapter 1 verse 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
verse14
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Revelation chapter 19 verse 13
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Godlovesmetwo · Aug 28, 2017

RDKirk said:
Christ is God

Don't confuse me.

Godlovesmetwo · Aug 28, 2017

SPF said:
Heaven will not be boring, we will not be transformed into robots where we lose our personality.

That's the problem. No one really knows for sure what Heaven will be like.

Would you still be a Christian without the incentive of Heaven?

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