Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Hmm]

So, I just leave him be. I was not intending to end the thread.

Oh, I realise that and I didn't mean to imply that you were. I just needed an excuse to bump the thread!

 

[GenemZ]

I’m asking about an honest hypothetical in which your views are in error and universalism is in fact Gods desire and plan for the world.

So the question is “would you prefer it if Christian universalism were true?” The question isn’t “would you prefer it if Satan and his angels won?”

For the sake of an honest hypothetical I’m asking that you first allow for the possibility that your views are mistaken and that Christian Universalism is correct.

Would you prefer it if your views were in error but the whole of the world will be saved?

That view of Christian Universalism may or may not contain the redemption of Satan and his angels. That’s not been specified in the topic and you’re free to pick the kind of universalism where only every human being is ultimately reconciled to God the Father, not every rebellious angel.

But, we can not avoid dealing with Satan and his angels. When the whole purpose of the fall of man and redemption, was to illustrate and show the angels how wrong Satan and his angels are, and can not be reconciled to live a life of their own, in peace.

Universalism treats evil as if it were a seasonal allergy that will disappear. That it is caused by something external. When in fact, evil originates in the very heart of the person. Universalism can not get a grip on the nature of evil. Sin is not the same thing as evil.

Remember, when Lucifer first rejected the Lord, he did so from a a yet unfallen body. Evil comes from the essence of the being. Sin comes from the fallen nature of the body.

Jesus died for our sins. He could not die for evil. For to do so, Jesus would have had to reject Himself on the Cross. He can not reject Himself!

Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself."




2 Tim 2:11-13​

 

[Saint Steven]

For the sake of an honest hypothetical I’m asking that you first allow for the possibility that your views are mistaken and that Christian Universalism is correct.

A complete explanation to the same guy that wrote this. - lol

But, when someone keeps failing to see what is being stated, its like explaining the punch lines to the only guy in the room who is not laughing and does not get the jokes. Some just can not grasp the spirit of what is being said...

 

[Saint Steven]

... On topic: Over 2000 messages and nobody has provided a persuasive reason why they would prefer that universalism weren’t true.

They have presupposed it’s wrong, they have refused to answer, they’ve even written something to the effect of “I want greater than I can imagine, therefore not universalism because I can imagine universalism,” which was the most hilarious non answer so far. They prefer they don’t know what.

Users have done everything except provide the thread with a coherent reason to prefer another view over the Christian universalist view. God prefers the Christian universalist view. ...

Great post, thanks.
I want to comment on this bit.

Annihilation is tolerated, but Universalism is disdained. Anything but that. As you indicate, they could hope for something better than Damnationism, but would NEVER go so far as UR. Heavens no!

 

[Cormack]

Annihilation is tolerated, but Universalism is disdained.

The best I can imagine at short notice is that annihilationism isn’t radical enough to raise the ire of the damnationist. Believers in ETC still get their pound of human flesh under annihilationism, they have their beliefs in winners and losers and forever punishment sustained by their neighbours in the annihilation camp.

Winners, losers and forever punishment have no enduring place in the Christian universalists picture. They’re largely the odd one out and are treated in a way that reflects that.

 

[Saint Steven]

The best I can imagine at short notice is that annihilationism isn’t radical enough to raise the ire of the damnationist. Believers in ETC still get their pound of human flesh under annihilationism, they have their beliefs in winners and losers and forever punishment sustained by their neighbours in the annihilation camp.

Winners, losers and forever punishment have no enduring place in the Christian universalists picture. They’re largely the odd one out and are treated in a way that reflects that.

Yes, it seems that Annihilationism is the more humane sibling of Damnationism. To put those who are suffering out of their misery seems a kinder way to deal with those who are deemed to be put out forever. To correct and restore them seems unthinkable.

 

[GenemZ]

The best I can imagine at short notice is that annihilationism isn’t radical enough to raise the ire of the damnationist. Believers in ETC still get their pound of human flesh under annihilationism, they have their beliefs in winners and losers and forever punishment sustained by their neighbours in the annihilation camp.

Winners, losers and forever punishment have no enduring place in the Christian universalists picture. They’re largely the odd one out and are treated in a way that reflects that.

What ever your "experiment" is....

Where there is FREEDOM there will be winners and losers found. Not even all angels are equal. That does not mean there is not happiness for all who believe. Even the loser believers will be happy. You seem to not know that.

There are answers for everything you may wish to imagine away. God works with absolutes. For God is Absolute. Heaven and Hell will not disappear because someone hates the idea.... though they try.

This thread died a natural death. I would like to see where its going now, now that you have your pet doctrine barking on the lawn again and bothering the neighbors.

Heaven is real. and The Lake of Fire is real. The Lake is forever.

I am FREE to believe that because the Bible says so. You are not free to change my mind unless to can present objective truth. You only make an appeal to the emotions, and that is not how God works.

 

[Cormack]

Where there is FREEDOM there will be winners and losers found. Not even all angels are equal. That does not mean there is not happiness for all who believe. Even the loser believers will be happy. You seem to not know that.

I don’t conflate inequality with winning or losing. I’m 6’2, that doesn’t mean I’m the winner over someone who’s 5’9, anymore than I’m a loser after having met a man who stands 7’2.

I would like to see where its going now, now that you have your pet doctrine barking on the lawn again and bothering the neighbors.

You can see where it’s going, if you’d be so kind as to answer my earlier question. Once again. . . “Would you prefer it if your views were in error but the whole of the world will be saved?”

You are are giving a political speech, not doctrinal exposition.

You dislike politics? You could take that chunk of writing as simply good advice, because instead of writing in the spirit of the topic you’ve used your messages to further explain your own theology.

You’ve ignored relevant questions on the theme of the topic in favour of thumping your beliefs. Which again is fine, thump away, but it’s not doing you much good if your message to rating ratio is anything to go by.

Seems as though you often end up having a conversation all by yourself.

Those will be the first to go in... Why will they never be reconciled as you say God wants to do?

That’s your view of the text and there are many who differ. Why would I presuppose your reading of the verses and answer your questions on the verses when you won’t follow along with the topic and respond to mine?

Before dipping into high theology and peeling apart the text one onion at a time, I’d recommend you study up on simple person to person interaction.

You answer and converse on my question and then I’d be happy to answer and converse on your question.

I’ve asked you something. I asked that back in message #2020, you haven’t answered.

 

[Cormack]

This thread died a natural death.

I’m more than happy for the thread to die a natural death and now live a supernatural life. Obviously the topic has stirred the spirits of users who hold onto eternal conscious torment.

They’re welcome to share why (after an honest hypothetical) their views are more desirable than Christian universalism. There’s no reason under the sun or so it seems.

Perhaps that’s why God Himself prefers universalism.

 

[Cormack]

You are not free to change my mind unless to can present objective truth.

Actually that’s your job, sir. Not mine. I don’t care what you believe and I’m not the headmaster of indoctrination around these here parts.

You’re a free agent and if you care you can look into Christian Universalism yourself and present the strongest case possible.

I doubt you have ever done that and I doubt you ever will do that, though I’d be pleased as punch to be proven wrong.

 

[Hmm]

He tortures them because they would always harass others who do worship God, trying to make their joy to be a hell for them.

This is one of the best arguments for Christian universalism I've ever seen, thanks.

This thread died a natural death. I would like to see where its going now, now that you have your pet doctrine barking on the lawn again and bothering the neighbors.

It's going well. The more I read content like this outpouring, the more reassured I am that the opposite is true.

 

[Cormack]

He tortures them because they would always harass others who do worship God, trying to make their joy to be a hell for them.

Torture is a very strong word. Would you prefer to rephrase that, or are you happy with the word torture?

 

[Hmm]

Torture is a very strong word. Would you prefer to rephrase that, or are you happy with the word torture?

Well noticed. It's very revealing.

 

[GenemZ]

Posters should realise how destructive their presuppositional approach is to conversation. I just can’t reply to many users on here because they’re so out to lunch.

Now that was setting a humble tone? Do you realize how destructive that is?

 

[Hmm]

Now that was setting a humble tone? Do you realize how destructive that is?

It's constructive feedback. For free.

 

[GenemZ]

Torture is a very strong word. Would you prefer to rephrase that, or are you happy with the word torture?

Does the truth torture you?

Those who live to torture (mentally, or physically) God will judge them as they judged others.

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge
others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be
measured to you.

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no
attention to the plank in your own eye?" Mat 7:1-3​

God is telling us? You decide how you are going to be judged... You will make your own punishment.

That tells us what? The Lake of Fire is representative of the very reason they must be there.

Some of us that defy God's Word need to stop telling God that He is not a true discerner of what is in a man's heart.

 

[Cormack]

It's constructive feedback. For free.

Maybe it’s a choice between my open arrogance or the average Christians false humility.

Do you realize how destructive that is?

I don’t see it as destructive because (at least right now) you’re not constructing anything. You reject the purpose of the thread and have avoided on topic questions in favour of pounding on your own theology.

There’s no standing ovation for coming into the topic, rejecting its premise, then challenging posters who are on topic to answer your off topic questions.

 

[GenemZ]

It's constructive feedback. For free.

There was even a price for that...

 

[GenemZ]

Maybe it’s a choice between my open arrogance or the average Christians false humility.



I don’t see it as destructive because (at least right now) you’re not constructing anything. You reject the purpose of the thread and have avoided on topic questions in favour of pounding on your own theology.

There’s no standing ovation for coming into the topic, rejecting its premise, then challenging posters who are on topic to answer your off topic questions.

Show us then... where God will release all from the Lake of Fire and reconcile us all back into one big happy family.

 

[Cormack]

Does the truth torture you?

No sir. Now my question. Would you like to rethink your use of the word torture as it relates to God.

Do you believe God is going to torture people?

He tortures them because they would always harass others who do worship God, trying to make their joy to be a hell for them.

I’d say using that word is ill advised and that many believers in eternal conscious torment use the word “torment,” rather than torture. They hope to find a soft place to fall in that use of language.