Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Gregory Thompson]

2001 .... Nope. Maybe it doesn't do that anymore.

 

[GenemZ]

Isn’t hell thrown into the lake of fire?

It says death and Hades are to be thrown in the Lake of Fire.

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (This is the second death—the lake of fire.) Rev 20:14​

How is that?

All unbelievers are spiritually dead. Jesus said that they are spiritually dead though physically alive. Hence... "Let the dead bury their own dead."

Hades is now the waiting place for all souls of unbelievers who have died physically. So, one could say that Hades is the place of the dead. The place is called "death."

The Lake of Fire does not yet have anyone in it. For, it was not created for man.

When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least
of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’


“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Mat 25:39-41​

The Lake of Fire was created for the Devil and his angels. Not originally for man.

Satan and his angels was its original purpose. Its awaiting for when the final judgment for men takes place. When all unbelievers go before the Lord to face their final judgment they will have been removed out from Hades to be presented before the Lord. Judged, and then sent to the Lake of Fire.

When the judgement of all the unbelievers (the dead) is finished? There will be no more need for a waiting place of the dead like Hades. In that manner Hades and death will be gone as its thrown into the Lake of Fire. No longer needed.

Hope that helps....

 

[Cormack]

I wasn't aware the various Lutheran denominations had appointed you the arbiter of which Lutherans were at best an inconsistent Lutheran.

As I’ve written, there’s nothing wrong with being an inconsistent anything. However, because these things are systematised and have been worked out to a fault, when you get inconsistent, then you invite loads of inconsistencies and absurdities into your theology.

That makes clear conversation impossible, everything becomes muddled. Not to mention it just encourages an environment where people make things up as they go along.

Who would be a consistent Lutheran then?

People who hold to the vast majority of core historically believed things that Lutherans have believed in.

Probably not Luther as he was known to change his mind from time to time.

I don’t expect people to be consist with themselves over a lifetime, but I do expect when someone writes “I’m a Lutheran” that they’d hold to Lutheran theories of human nature, freedom (or lack thereof,) and other biggie beliefs that you aren’t holding to.

Just like how if Luther said he was a vegetarian I’d expect him to avoid meat.

I just expect people to believe in the things they say they believe in.

I don't find it at all a bad thing to disagree with him on the things he was clearly wrong about or the things I find no reason to believe he was right about.

Sure but then, if those same beliefs that you depart with Luther on are believed by the vast majority of Lutherans, then in plain English you’re not a Lutheran on that point of doctrine.

There’s only so much of that departing from their beliefs that I could hear before having to discount you as a believing Lutheran in proper.

Hearing your slick compatiblism I’m sure you share a lot in common with Lutherans, so it’s not like you’re a flaming heretic to those people. You’re probably a very good Lutheran in much of your faith and practise…. but not in your anthropology.

A lot of other beliefs flow from our anthropology too. It’s a big domino.

If the Lutheran denomination I belong to decides to excommunicate me because of my inconsistency I guess I could always start my own denomination and become a little more consistent with Luther's life experience anyway .

His life experience for sure, but perhaps not his beliefs.

 

[Saint Steven]

That is His genuine undivided will. I do not see how God could have multiple wills either.

Does not his will for each individual vary? (within reason)

 

[Abaxvahl]

Does not his will for each individual vary? (within reason)

It does, for there is variation with every individual and God is the cause of that by willing it so just from things existing that differ it can be seen that God's will in each is unique.

 

[Der Alte]

It says death and Hades are to be thrown in the Lake of Fire.

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (This is the second death—the lake of fire.) Rev 20:14​

How is that?
All unbelievers are spiritually dead. Jesus said that they are spiritually dead though physically alive. Hence... "Let the dead bury their own dead."
Hades is now the waiting place for all souls of unbelievers who have died physically. So, one could say that Hades is the place of the dead. The place is called "death."
The Lake of Fire does not yet have anyone in it. For, it was not created for man.

When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least
of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Mat 25:39-41​

The Lake of Fire was created for the Devil and his angels. Not originally for man.
Satan and his angels was its original purpose. Its awaiting for when the final judgment for men takes place. When all unbelievers go before the Lord to face their final judgment they will have been removed out from Hades to be presented before the Lord. Judged, and then sent to the Lake of Fire.
When the judgement of all the unbelievers (the dead) is finished? There will be no more need for a waiting place of the dead like Hades. In that manner Hades and death will be gone as its thrown into the Lake of Fire. No longer needed.
Hope that helps....

Revelation 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

Death is the point in time end of life. If has no physical substance and can't literally be thrown anywhere. It can't and has not died a first time and can't literally die a second time.
Hades/hell can mean either the grave or the place of punishment. The grave and the place of punishment has not and can't die a first time so they can't die a second time.
If hades/hell means the grave they are empty at that time. Empty can't be thrown anywhere. Can the place of punishment be thrown into the place of punishment?
Or are they figurative? There is a scriptural answer.

Revelation 6:8
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

Two sentient beings, whom I call the angel of death and the demon of hell, which can be thrown and can die are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

 

[bling]

Notice you shared “After satan rebelled against God in heaven, satan’s free will could be taken from him, it is only needed for Godly type Love.”

To which I responded biblically.



Replying “okay” is to not appreciate the gravity of how your mistaken ideas on freewill and “Godly type love” are. I’ve shown you via scripture that Satan does things (e.g. tempt) that God would never do, meaning he’s truly free to do those things without your idea about “Godly love” being necessary for freedom.

Replying “okay” and plastering over the cracks really goes to show that this is a knock down drag out refutation of your whole belief system to do with freedom. Satan is truly free yet has no love.

I did not say satan's free will was taken from him and you feel it was not which is OK with me. What satan is doing is very limited, but allowed by God.
I did not say "“Godly love” being necessary for freedom", but free will is needed for Godly type Love.
God can allow or cause bad stuff to happen to people to help them fulfill their objective.

 

[GenemZ]

Revelation 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

Death is the point in time end of life. If has no physical substance and can't literally be thrown anywhere. It can't and has not died a first time and can't literally die a second time.

Are you forgetting? Unbelievers will have their own resurrection as to appear before the Lord for sentencing. They will be returned to having a body.

Once thrown into the Lake of Fire with that body?

They will die a SECOND time. Second death!

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are
in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who
have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have
done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." Jn 5:28-29​

 

[Der Alte]

Are you forgetting? Unbelievers will have their own resurrection as to appear before the Lord for sentencing. They will be returned to having a body.
Once thrown into the Lake of Fire with that body?
They will die a SECOND time. Second death!

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are
in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who
have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have
done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." Jn 5:28-29​

​

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Some will argue that the word “are” is not in the Greek. However the verb translated “tormented” is plural. Plural beings are tormented.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms are interchangeable, the lake of fire is the second death and the second death is the lake of fire, thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death. In Rev 19:20, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere but there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

I call these two beings the angel of death and the demon of hell, others may call them whatever they will, are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

 

[GenemZ]

​

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.​

That is another matter....

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Cor 3:11-15


​

All believers are saved the moment they believed in Jesus Christ. They are saved by grace, even though some may remain oblivious to good sound doctrinal teachings that would have caused their growth and maturity into understanding who they are in Christ. Many of this type who reject sound doctrine are highly superstitious, even religious. They may bow down to statues and follow the dogmas of men... or the programs of their given local church.

Those in the churches who chose to remain doctrinally dumbed down with no real desire for sound doctrinal Bible teachings? They will have all sorts of erroneous ideas about God, and most likely will follow some form of religion that likes to mention the name of Jesus Christ as a part of its discourse.

When they are called before the Lord in their resurrection body to be evaluated to see if they produced either wood, hay, or stubble? Or, gold, silver and precious stones? In their new imperishable resurrection body, they will be placed into the Lake of Fire, which will scare them out of their wits! Shamed before the Lord.

Then they will find themselves in utter shock to discover that their bodies survived the fire as they remained alive. They will be utterly ASHAMED of themselves.. Stunned to finally see that salvation was as simple as believing in Jesus Christ.

In that sense the Second death will hurt them... For it will burn up all their self righteous "good works" (wood, hay, and stubble) they did in their religious pridefulness. The trauma from their ignorance will shake them right to the core. Once they realize they survived they will be "eternally humbled" from that moment on. Shaken and glad just to be alive.

In contrast. Those not hurt by the second death? As for those who wanted to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ? They will understand what was going on because of all the doctrine they loved to learn, knowing that in their resurrection body that nothing can harm them. These ones will confidently (gladly) enter the Lake of Fire. Enter unharmed and undeterred, just like the three Hebrew boys did in the fiery furnace of Nebuchadnezzar.

These ones who grew in grace and knowledge will not be hurt by the Second Death (Lake of Fire). They will be able to laugh and rejoice in the flames! For they will glory in the new freedom from any harm, finding themselves in a Resurrection body just like the Lord's.

Those believers who will be deeply ashamed (hurt)? They most likely will wish at that point they could go back again and to please the Lord by doing his will for their lives, wishing this time live each moment for the Lord, not their own natural way of seeing things as they pridefully had done while involved with their religion...

I know of no better way to say it.

grace and peace .........​

 

[Der Alte]

* * *

They are saved by grace, even though some may remain oblivious to good sound doctrinal teachings that would have caused their growth and maturity into understanding who they are in Christ. Many of this type who reject sound doctrine are highly superstitious, even religious. They may bow down to statues and follow the dogmas of men... or the programs of their given local church.
Those in the churches who chose to remain doctrinally dumbed down with no real desire for sound doctrinal Bible teachings? They will have all sorts of erroneous ideas about God, and most likely will follow some form of religion that likes to mention the name of Jesus Christ as a part of its discourse.
When they are called before the Lord in their resurrection body to be evaluated to see if they produced either wood, hay, or stubble? Or, gold, silver and precious stones? In their new imperishable resurrection body, they will be placed into the Lake of Fire, which will scare them out of their wits! Shamed before the Lord.
Then they will find themselves in utter shock to discover that their bodies survived the fire as they remained alive. They will be utterly ASHAMED of themselves.. Stunned to finally see that salvation was as simple as believing in Jesus Christ.
In that sense the Second death will hurt them... For it will burn up all their self righteous "good works" (wood, hay, and stubble) they did in their religious pridefulness. The trauma from their ignorance will shake them right to the core. Once they realize they survived they will be "eternally humbled" from that moment on. Shaken and glad just to be alive.
In contrast. Those not hurt by the second death? As for those who wanted to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ? They will understand what was going on because of all the doctrine they loved to learn, knowing that in their resurrection body that nothing can harm them. These ones will confidently (gladly) enter the Lake of Fire. Enter unharmed and undeterred, just like the three Hebrew boys did in the fiery furnace of Nebuchadnezzar.
These ones who grew in grace and knowledge will not be hurt by the Second Death (Lake of Fire). They will be able to laugh and rejoice in the flames! For they will glory in the new freedom from any harm, finding themselves in a Resurrection body just like the Lord's.
Those believers who will be deeply ashamed (hurt)? They most likely will wish at that point they could go back again and to please the Lord by doing his will for their lives, wishing this time live each moment for the Lord, not their own natural way of seeing things as they pridefully had done while involved with their religion...
I know of no better way to say it.
grace and peace .........​

​

I omitted the first part of this because it was scriptural. What remains is largely not supported by scripture. It is a lot of speculation on what someone thinks happens to the unrighteous.

 

[GenemZ]

​

I omitted the first part of this because it was scriptural. What remains is largely not supported by scripture. It is a lot of speculation on what someone thinks happens to the unrighteous.

You omitted what supported what you claimed was unscriptural....


And, evidently, there are many doctrinal teachings available that you have yet to absorb that God intends for us to think with. That was not intended to be an insult. It was to inform you that there are riches - treasure chest - of doctrinal teachings that would make one capable of correlation..

"My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love,
so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in
order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in
whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Col 2:2-3​

 

[Der Alte]

You omitted what supported what you claimed was unscriptural....
And, evidently, there are many doctrinal teachings available that you have yet to absorb that God intends for us to think with. That was not intended to be an insult. It was to inform you that there are riches - treasure chest - of doctrinal teachings that would make one capable of correlation..

"My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love,
so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in
order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in
whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Col 2:2-3​

Broad generalities with zero scriptural support.

 

[GenemZ]

Broad generalities with zero scriptural support.

You want specifics? You can't get them here. Only chips and dip, no solid meat.

It would take small books to do certain things justice.

A good place to begin would be here. Its a seminary level education taught to a congregation of believers who truly love to learn the Word of God in depth and detail.

ROBERT B. THIEME, JR. (1918–2009) remains a significant voice of Christianity throughout the world. His diligent, expository teaching is based on the original languages of Scripture in light of the historical context in which the Bible was written. His innovative systems of vocabulary, illustrations, and biblical categories clearly communicate the infallible truths of God’s Word. Thieme recorded more than eleven thousand hours of sermons and published more than one hundred books covering much of the Bible.


Thieme graduated from the University of Arizona (Phi Beta Kappa) and Dallas Theological Seminary (summa cum laude). His seminary studies were interrupted by World War II military service during which he rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel in the United States Army Air Corps. After completion of his graduate work in 1950, he became pastor of Berachah Church in Houston, Texas. His extensive training in Greek, Hebrew, theology, history, and textual criticism provided the foundation for his demanding professional life of studying and teaching the Word of God. Thieme retired as pastor of Berachah Church after fifty-three years of faithful service.​

Free copies of his lessons here:
https://www.rbthieme.org/PDF/LessonListingForWeb2014.pdf

Free!

R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries is a grace ministry and operates entirely on voluntary contributions. There is no price list for any of our material. No money is requested. When gratitude for the Word of God motivates a believer to give, he has the privilege of contributing to the dissemination of Bible doctrine.​

I wish you well. Many pastors have used his lessons as reference material. Billy Graham asked him to be his traveling mentor, but RBT turned it down because of the high demand of his congregation.

Why have you not heard of him before? He does not advertise.

 

[Der Alte]

You want specifics? You can't get them here. Only chips and dip, no solid meat.
It would take small books to do certain things justice.
A good place to begin would be here. Its a seminary level education taught to a congregation of believers who truly love to learn the Word of God in depth and detail.

ROBERT B. THIEME, JR. (1918–2009) remains a significant voice of Christianity throughout the world. His diligent, expository teaching is based on the original languages of Scripture in light of the historical context in which the Bible was written. His innovative systems of vocabulary, illustrations, and biblical categories clearly communicate the infallible truths of God’s Word. Thieme recorded more than eleven thousand hours of sermons and published more than one hundred books covering much of the Bible.
Thieme graduated from the University of Arizona (Phi Beta Kappa) and Dallas Theological Seminary (summa cum laude). His seminary studies were interrupted by World War II military service during which he rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel in the United States Army Air Corps. After completion of his graduate work in 1950, he became pastor of Berachah Church in Houston, Texas. His extensive training in Greek, Hebrew, theology, history, and textual criticism provided the foundation for his demanding professional life of studying and teaching the Word of God. Thieme retired as pastor of Berachah Church after fifty-three years of faithful service.​

Free copies of his lessons here:
https://www.rbthieme.org/PDF/LessonListingForWeb2014.pdf
Free!

R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries is a grace ministry and operates entirely on voluntary contributions. There is no price list for any of our material. No money is requested. When gratitude for the Word of God motivates a believer to give, he has the privilege of contributing to the dissemination of Bible doctrine.​

I wish you well. Many pastors have used his lessons as reference material. Billy Graham asked him to be his traveling mentor, but RBT turned it down because of the high demand of his congregation.
Why have you not heard of him before? He does not advertise.

I clicked all I found was a list of courses. I didn't find a link to anything relevant.

 

[GenemZ]

I clicked all I found was a list of courses. I didn't find a link to anything relevant.

Then.... let's end this conversation. Please.

 

[Hmm]

Then.... let's end this conversation. Please.

But we can't possibly let the wider conversation die, this is such a great thread!

 

[GenemZ]

But we can't possibly let the wider conversation die, this is such a great thread!

I am all for the conversation to continue...

But, when someone keeps failing to see what is being stated, its like explaining the punch lines to the only guy in the room who is not laughing and does not get the jokes. Some just can not grasp the spirit of what is being said...

The conversation should continue. But, I did not want it with him. He's in another world of reference that does not harmonize with what can be understood. Some people like to gaslight others. I don't know if that were the case. But, when it begins to appear that way? I find its best to end the conversation.

For I sent him a link where others have seen a treasure trough of info. And all he could say?

I clicked all I found was a list of courses. I didn't find a link to anything relevant.

People start reading and see all that is offered, and realize there are some great topics to grow by. Him? Almost sounded bored with the content. Why continue?

So, I just leave him be. I was not intending to end the thread.

 

[GenemZ]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

NO. Because that is what Satan wants for himself and all his angels. Satan is out to prove himself worthy to be restored, and the Lord is revealing now in time what good and evil can not be reconciled to be made able to coexist in perfect peace...

 

[Cormack]

NO. Because that is what Satan wants for himself and all his angels.

I’m asking about an honest hypothetical in which your views are in error and universalism is in fact Gods desire and plan for the world.

So the question is “would you prefer it if Christian universalism were true?” The question isn’t “would you prefer it if Satan and his angels won?”

For the sake of an honest hypothetical I’m asking that you first allow for the possibility that your views are mistaken and that Christian Universalism is correct.

Would you prefer it if your views were in error but the whole of the world will be saved?

That view of Christian Universalism may or may not contain the redemption of Satan and his angels. That’s not been specified in the topic and you’re free to pick the kind of universalism where only every human being is ultimately reconciled to God the Father, not every rebellious angel.