Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[ozso]

Yes I’ve heard it that way also and I have noticed that to be a popular belief but Revelation 20:14 gives us a clue.

“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:13-15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I find it interesting that out all the writers of the Bible, only the author of Revelation mentions the lake of fire. According to what I've read here and there, the author was not John the Apostle.

Of the New Testament works, only Revelation names its author explicitly as “John.” Revelation is written in much poorer Greek than the Gospel and letters are, and it even spells the name Jerusalem in Greek differently than the Gospel does. So it is extremely unlikely that the same person wrote all of these books. Some scholars therefore refer to the author of Revelation as “John the seer” or “John of Patmos” to distinguish him from the purported author of the Gospel and letters.
Which John? The Elder, the Seer, and the Apostle

I'm sure there are different opinions.

 

[Clare73]

That's one of the benefits of UR...

The Bible is much more understandable. - lol

So, if my personal point of view makes the Bible "more understandable;" i.e., in agreement with human sentiment, then I know my understanding is Biblical truth?

Where is that in Scripture? Actually, what I find in Scripture is:

" 'For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,'
declares the LORD."
--Isaiah 55:8

What more do you need to know?

Actually, UR is not serving you well, it is anything but the benefit you think it is. . .and that's not an "lol" matter.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don’t know, maybe they’ll have to go to the back of the line.

How would that put them before the others?
Unless you are joking, you seem unable to grasp that those you consider the worst are the favored ones by God.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Well... why did Jesus say they would enter BEFORE them?

 

[RickReads]

Jesus didn't say the Pharisees were not going to make it in at all. He said they would enter afterwards, behind the others.

31 “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

I don't see how 32 undoes 31.

You misunderstand the context. If I said lightning will strike you before you`ll win the lottery, I`m not suggesting that you`ll win the lottery.

I`m saying there is almost no chance that you`ll win it.

When you view this parable as some kind of promise that the enemies of Jesus all go to heaven you are reading something into the language that simply isn`t there.

 

[ozso]

You misunderstand the context. If I said lightning will strike you before you`ll win the lottery, I`m not suggesting that you`ll win the lottery.

I`m saying there is almost no chance that you`ll win it.

When you view this parable as some kind of promise that the enemies of Jesus all go to heaven you are reading something into the language that simply isn`t there.

The parable is told in verses 28-30
The summation of the parable is told in verses 31-32.
The summation Jesus gave, after He told the parable, was that the tax collectors and prostitutes who believed, would enter the Kingdom ahead of the Pharisees.

28 “What do you think? A man had two sons; he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’

29 He answered, ‘I will not’; but later he changed his mind and went [tax collectors and prostitutes].

30 The father went to the second and said the same; and he answered, ‘I go, sir’; but he did not go.[Pharisees]

End of parable.

Summation of parable:

31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him; and even after you saw it, you did not change your minds and believe him.

Jesus said the tax collectors and the prostitutes (believers) are going into the kingdom of God ahead of them. Not instead of them. But ahead of them.

 

[ozso]

How would that put them before the others?
Unless you are joking, you seem unable to grasp that those you consider the worst are the favored ones by God.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Well... why did Jesus say they would enter BEFORE them?

Too stuck on them being tax collectors and prostitutes and overlooking them being believers in Jesus.

 

[RickReads]

The parable is told in verses 28-30
The summation of the parable is told in verses 31-32.
The summation Jesus gave, after He told the parable, was that the tax collectors and prostitutes who believed, would enter the Kingdom ahead of the Pharisees.

28 “What do you think? A man had two sons; he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’

29 He answered, ‘I will not’; but later he changed his mind and went [tax collectors and prostitutes].

30 The father went to the second and said the same; and he answered, ‘I go, sir’; but he did not go.[Pharisees]

End of parable.

Summation of parable:

31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him; and even after you saw it, you did not change your minds and believe him.

Jesus said the tax collectors and the prostitutes (believers) are going into the kingdom of God ahead of them. Not instead of them. But ahead of them.

Firstly. there is no such thing as going to heaven instead of someone else. It doesn`t work that way.

Second. The tax collectors and prostitutes converted.

Third. The chance to convert remained for the Pharisees.

Fourth the chances of Pharisees converting were very low.

Lastly, by your logic, an unconverted Pharisee would be in better shape for the judgement than an unconverted prostitute or tax collector which isn`t the case.

It`s easy to manipulate scripture if you are not going to allow for the nuances and culture of the language it has been transliterated from.

 

[Saint Steven]

You misunderstand the context. If I said lightning will strike you before you`ll win the lottery, I`m not suggesting that you`ll win the lottery.

I`m saying there is almost no chance that you`ll win it.

When you view this parable as some kind of promise that the enemies of Jesus all go to heaven you are reading something into the language that simply isn`t there.

You seem to be blinded by the idea that tax collectors and prostitutes are the "enemies of Jesus". Not so. They were his friends. The religious people were the enemies of Jesus.

 

[zoidar]

Verse 32 says they were believers.

31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him; and even after you saw it, you did not change your minds and believe him.

This looks to me like Jesus is telling the unbelieving Pharisees that they will go into the Kingdom. But the believing tax collectors and prostitutes will go in ahead of them.

I guess I understand Jesus the way I said it, even it was directed to those tax collectors and prostitutes that did believe. The tax collectors and prostitutes were more fit for heaven than the Pharisees. It's true Jesus isn't specifically saying here that the Pharisees won't enter heaven, but I think that is what he is alluding to.

 

[Saint Steven]

I guess I understand Jesus the way I said it, even it was directed to those tax collectors and prostitutes that did believe. The tax collectors and prostitutes were more fit for heaven than the Pharisees. It's true Jesus isn't specifically saying here that the Pharisees won't enter heaven, but I think that is what he is alluding to.

There is a cultural context here that is driving the whole discussion. The thought was that the religious folks were pleasing to God and had his blessing. The tax collectors (traitors) and prostitutes were the scum of their society. Jesus, in usual form, puts the ones considered the worst above those considered the best.

And yes, Jesus was referring to believers who were, or had been, tax collectors and prostitutes.

 

[RickReads]

You seem to be blinded by the idea that tax collectors and prostitutes are the "enemies of Jesus". Not so. They were his friends. The religious people were the enemies of Jesus.

I was talking about how Jewish society looked at them. ( publicans and prostitutes)

The Pharisees Jesus was talking to were His enemies and the ones I was referring to.

 

[Clare73]

You seem to be blinded by the idea that tax collectors and prostitutes are the "enemies of Jesus". Not so. They were his friends. The religious people were the enemies of Jesus.

Jesus did not mitigate the sin of tax collectors and prostitutes. He never minimized sin.

Rather he made the unbelief of his Jewish rejectors a much greater sin than prostitution and theft, putting them "in line" behind them.

Jesus was not invested in minimizing sin as some would have him be, for the sake of their own notions and preferences.

 

[zoidar]

.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The parable is told in verses 28-30
The summation of the parable is told in verses 31-32.
The summation Jesus gave, after He told the parable, was that the tax collectors and prostitutes who believed, would enter the Kingdom ahead of the Pharisees.

28 “What do you think? A man had two sons; he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’

29 He answered, ‘I will not’; but later he changed his mind and went [tax collectors and prostitutes].

30 The father went to the second and said the same; and he answered, ‘I go, sir’; but he did not go.[Pharisees]

End of parable.

Summation of parable:

31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him; and even after you saw it, you did not change your minds and believe him.

Jesus said the tax collectors and the prostitutes (believers) are going into the kingdom of God ahead of them. Not instead of them. But ahead of them.

Actually MMX the scripture contexts you have left out here absolutely says that the Tax collectors and the prostitutes in reference to the Scribes and the Pharisees going in ahead of them is in reference to the Scribes and the Pharisees not entering into the Kingdom of Heaven. Here let's look at all the context of the scriptures you quoted.

Matthew 21:28-45
v28-30. parable of the man with two sons the one who said no to the father but went out and did the fathers will and the other who said yes but did not do what the father asked.

v31. The one that said no but did what the father asked representing the tax collectors and the prostitutes and the other saying yes representing the Scribes and the Pharisees and the tax collectors and the prostitutes going into the kingdom of God ahead of the Scribes and the Pharisees.

v32. John the baptist came in the way of righteousness but the Scribes and Pharisees did not believe him.
v33. Parable of the vineyard lent out to the farmers (Israel born of the flesh) of the householder
v34. At the seasons end the householder sent his servants to receive the fruit of the harvest .
v35. The farmers took the householders servants (the prophets) and beat them and killed them
v36. The householder sent more servants that the farmers did the same to them as the first
v37. The householder then sent his son thinking they will respect my son
v38. The farmers saw the son and said quick lets kill him and take his inheritance
v39. They caught the son and killed him.
v40. The question is asked what will the householder do to those farmers at his return?
v41. The Scribes and Pharisees answered him he will miserably destroy those wicked men and give his vineyard to others.
v42. Jesus answered, Did you never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?

v43-45. Therefore say I to you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spoke of them.

..................

The reason why the Tax collectors and the prostitutes went into the Kingdom of God ahead of the Scribes and the Pharisees is that they believed and followed Gods' Word where as the Scribes and the Pharisees did not believe and follow Gods' Word. Because the Scribes and the Pharisees did not believe and follow Gods' Word Jesus says that the kingdom of God was to be taken from them and given to another. Those who believe and follow Gods' Word. Therefore when Jesus said earlier that the Tax collectors and the prostitutes go in to God's kingdom "ahead of you" he was saying if you do not believe and follow Gods' word the kingdom of God will be taken away from you. Your not going there.

........

All the above also agreeing with what Jesus says here...

John 3:36 He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.

It is very clear from the scriptures here that is we do not believe and follow God's Word we will not receive eternal life. Gods' promises therefore are conditional therefore on believing and following what God's Word says.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[RickReads]

Too stuck on them being tax collectors and prostitutes and overlooking them being believers in Jesus.

No, Steve either misunderstood me, or else he deliberately reversed who I speaking of.

 

[ozso]

Firstly. there is no such thing as going to heaven instead of someone else. It doesn`t work that way.

Second. The tax collectors and prostitutes converted.

Third. The chance to convert remained for the Pharisees.

Fourth the chances of Pharisees converting were very low.

Lastly, by your logic, an unconverted Pharisee would be in better shape for the judgement than an unconverted prostitute or tax collector which isn`t the case.

It`s easy to manipulate scripture if you are not going to allow for the nuances and culture of the language it has been transliterated from.

It seems to me you and another are the ones trying to read into scripture what's not there. You give an analogy of being stuck by lightning and the other gives an analogy of ISIS. Anything but what Jesus clearly said; that group A was going to enter the kingdom of God ahead of group B.

And I think the reason why you're both having trouble with the passage is because it doesn't seem to support the eternal separation from God everlasting torture chamber doctrine.

 

[ozso]

I guess I understand Jesus the way I said it, even it was directed to those tax collectors and prostitutes that did believe. The tax collectors and prostitutes were more fit for heaven than the Pharisees. It's true Jesus isn't specifically saying here that the Pharisees won't enter heaven, but I think that is what he is alluding to.

It seems to me Jesus said the Pharisees will enter the kingdom of God, but after the others.

 

[RickReads]

It seems to me you and another are the ones trying to read into scripture what's not there. You give an analogy of being stuck by lightning and the other gives an analogy of ISIS. Anything but what Jesus clearly said; that group A was going to enter the kingdom of God ahead of group B.

And I think the reason why you're both having trouble with the passage is because it doesn't seem to support the eternal separation from God everlasting torture chamber doctrine.

That's the tired old narrative again. I don`t operate that way. I`m a literalist and I`m content to follow the gospel as is.

Had the scribes and the Pharisees wanted, they could have all repented and converted. Jesus doesn`t promise the Kingdom of heaven to anyone who doesn`t get with the program. It`s not a pecking order for free passes to heaven. The Parable simply doesn`t mean what you are thinking.

You even missed Jesus' point. He was telling the Pharisees that their sins are more serious than the sin of the publicans and prostitutes. The parable establishes that God's judgment will have levels of guilt which is a blow to universalism and also partly why the parable isn`t a good example for a universalist.

Post #1314 is also pretty good as Jesus continues building his case against the Pharisees. No heaven tickets were given out to them.

 

[ozso]

That's the tired old narrative again. I don`t operate that way. I`m a literalist and I`m content to follow the gospel as is.

Had the scribes and the Pharisees wanted, they could have all repented and converted. Jesus doesn`t promise the Kingdom of heaven to anyone who doesn`t get with the program. It`s not a pecking order for free passes to heaven. The Parable simply doesn`t mean what you are thinking.

Once again, the focus isn't on the parable. It's on the summation. 28-30 parable. 31-32 summation.

You even missed Jesus' point. He was telling the Pharisees that their sins are more serious than the sin of the publicans and prostitutes. The parable establishes that God's judgment will have levels of guilt which is a blow to universalism and also partly why the parable isn`t a good example for a universalist.

It's not about a whole bunch of stuff. It's just about belief vs unbelief.

Post #1314 is also pretty good as Jesus continues building his case against the Pharisees. No heaven tickets were given out to them.

Considering the topic of this thread, the main point of focus should be that Jesus said unbelievers will enter the kingdom of God, after the believers. There are other verses in the NT which say the same thing.

 

[RickReads]

Considering the topic of this thread, the main point of focus should be that Jesus said unbelievers will enter the kingdom of God, after the believers. There are other verses in the NT which say the same thing.

You can make verses say lots of things they don't by using one verse theology and creative interpretation.

And after 1300 posts I think it`s safe to say the thread has diversified. I know Cormack gets annoyed when his threads don`t stick to his chosen topic but I think 1300 posts and still going is an accomplishment.