Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Hmm]

I`ve been looking at it on and off since my Yahoo group days. I respect Cormack's intellect and his admission that universalism excludes retributive penalties for unforgiven imputed sin really renders universalism unbiblical in many ways.

To his credit, he is the first universalist to give me a straight answer on that.

Mind you it`s not any great change. I still have my doubts about eternal punishing.

I pretty much think the same. I'm not sure either but one thing's for sure, no plausible argument has been presented in this thread on the opposing side.

 

[zoidar]

Mind you it`s not any great change. I still have my doubts about eternal punishing.

I don't like the word "hell". I prefer to use "eternal death". I'm not making any claims to know what that means other than it's the unpreferable destination, to say the least.

 

[Cormack]

But universalism has not lost interest in you

I respect Cormack's intellect and his admission that universalism excludes retributive penalties for unforgiven imputed sin really renders universalism unbiblical in many ways.

We’re all awesome guys, “come on man.”

 

[Saint Steven]

You left some steps out:

1. We are born sinful.
2. The punishment is a forever burning Hell.
3. Christ died for our sins and draws all men unto Himself.
   
4. Whosoever shall call upon His name shall be saved.
5. Some prefer to "pull back unto perdition," however.
6. Said persons wind up in Hell.
7. But don't complain because it was your choice.

In that list I would stop at point #4. Here's why.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

 

[zoidar]

You may not be as confident if that if you listen to people who suffer from excessive guilt or ”scrupulosity" as it's termed in some religious traditions.

I know the problem. I don't think that is repentance, more like being religious. Religion kills. Jesus saves.

 

[Hmm]

I know the problem. I don't think that is repentance, more like being religious. Religion kills. Jesus saves.

I agree. Love casts out fear.

 

[zoidar]

I agree. Love casts out fear.

I think first when we have come to Christ and love him, first then can we really cast out the fear. Before that it's always fear of judgement. Sadly also believers may fear judgement. As NT Wright says: "It should be viewed more as a time to rejoice, when God will judge all injustice".

 

[Hmm]

I think first when we have come to Christ and love him, first then can we really cast out the fear. Before that it's always fear of judgement. Sadly also believers may fear judgement. As NT Wright says: "It should be viewed more as a time to rejoice, when God will judge all injustice".

I agree and it's not always something that only affects our early days as a Christian. It may take a lifetime. For myself, I have struggled with fear all of my Christian life. Not fear of eternal hell thankfully because I reject the idea as being inconsistent with the image of God in Jesus, but fear stemming from low self-esteem coming from an extremely abuse childhood (and I use that term knowing how many people have also suffered, many far more than me). My faith saved my life but I've yet to fully deal with the legacy. So I certainly wasn't saying that you were in any way inauthentic earlier although I fear (that word again!) it may have come across that way.

 

[ColoRaydo]

Sure!

I wish everyone who actually sought to serve “god” would eventually spend eternity with God. More than that, I wish everyone would be saved because those who reject Christ simply CANNOT understand what they are missing. I emphasize the word “cannot”.

I used to believe that everyone who was given the opportunity to hear the Good News would be saved through the calling of the Holy Spirit, but years of living and working overseas led me to really question how some people could ever possibly understand the Good News. Even good friends, at home and abroad, to whom I have witnessed have rejected Christ.

Even in countries where Christianity used to thrive, the spiritual light has gone dark. How could that have happened?

Over the years I feel my question has been answered as I now lean strongly (not totally) towards Calvinism.

 

[zoidar]

Sure!

I wish everyone who actually sought to serve “god” would eventually spend eternity with God. More than that, I wish everyone would be saved because those who reject Christ simply CANNOT understand what they are missing. I emphasize the word “cannot”.

I used to believe that everyone who was given the opportunity to hear the Good News would be saved through the calling of the Holy Spirit, but years of living and working overseas led me to really question how some people could ever possibly understand the Good News. Even good friends, at home and abroad, to whom I have witnessed have rejected Christ.

Even in countries where Christianity used to thrive, the spiritual light has gone dark. How could that have happened?

Over the years I feel my question has been answered as I now lean strongly (not totally) towards Calvinism.

Why not Lutheranism? I often get a sorrow in my heart when someone is moving towards Calvinism. Honestly if Calvinism is true I don't know if I can continue being a Christian. For about a year I considered the ideas of Calvinism being true. I was very depressed during this time, I had this huge burden on my heart. That made me look for possible alternatives. I found where I had gone wrong in how I read Scripture, and I'm thankful for that.

 

[ColoRaydo]

Why not Lutheranism? I often get a sorrow in my heart when someone is moving towards Calvinism. Honestly if Calvinism is true I don't know if I can continue being a Christian.

I am a Lutheran.

Like most people, I want black and white answers to all my questions. But I was (and still am to some degree) plagued by why some people, and some family members in particular, won’t respond to Christ’s call. It truly makes the most sense to me that they simply cannot.

Though I believe we are obligated to share the Good News, I believe God’s sovereignty rules and I’m not the Holy Spirit. I believe God knew us before creation and that the people who are born and who die in some remote village in Pakistan or Morocco aren’t just unlucky because they met a Christian from the west and couldn’t fathom why he’s not Muslim.

Even in the USA, I have friends who were born and raised in anti Christian homes. They think I’m insane (spiritually). Clearly, they didn’t have the opportunity to receive God’s free gift that I did being raised by Christians (though neither one of my parents were Christians until shortly before I was born).

In short, I believe it’s God that chooses.

Finally, I must add, I could be wrong about predestination vs free will, but I know I’m not wrong that Christ is my savior no matter how it happened.

 

[Clare73]

You can't be serious. Yet it seems you are.
So, you are claiming hell is a better system than Universalism? What's better about it?
Is it that it never ends? Does that make hell better?
Is it that it has no purpose? Does that make hell better?
That countless billions of those who have never heard of Christ will end up there? Does that make hell better?
That the atonement wasn't payment enough? Does that make hell better?
What is it?

It is just.

And there is nothing in Scripture anywhere in disagreement with the following teaching:

sin not being forgiven even in the next life (Matthew 12:32)--no universal reconciliation,
burning of the tares/weeds (Matthew 13:30),
unquenchable fire for unforgiven sin (Mark 9:47-48),
burning up (ruin) of the chaff with unquenchable fire (Luke 3:17),
no eternal life, only wrath for those who reject Christ (John 3:36),
unending second death (Revelation 20:14-15, Revelation 20:10).

 

[Servus]

Indeed!

I'm not sure how all the extortions in the Bible to be obedient and do good works etc fit in with universalism. But is anyone really going to sit around doing nothing all their life just because they believe we're all saved so it doesn't really matter if we help the poor and outcast because we're all going to get a wonderful reward in the next life? It always seems to me a poor motivation anyway to do these things just because we're commanded to and we're worried about the consequences to our individual salvation if we don't. If universalism is true, our hearts will be lightened and our motivation will be to do good deeds as a natural outflowing of love for such a good God who has paid the price of all our failings.

Yes I feel the same regarding universalism and once saved always saved. With those two in play my motivation is no longer for myself in any way and becomes totally for God and others.

And also as far as obedience goes, the OT is full of rules about being obedient, without any threat of Hell.

 

[Clare73]

Indeed!
I'm not sure how all the extortions in the Bible to be obedient and do good works etc fit in with universalism. But is anyone really going to sit around doing nothing all their life just because they believe we're all saved so it doesn't really matter if we help the poor and outcast because we're all going to get a wonderful reward in the next life?

It always seems to me a poor motivation anyway to do these things just because we're commanded to and we're worried about the consequences to our individual salvation if we don't. If universalism is true, our hearts will be lightened and our motivation will be to do good deeds as a natural outflowing of love for such a good God who has paid the price of all our failings.

Do you guys not understand Scripture and the gospel any better than that?

 

[zoidar]

Finally, I must add, I could be wrong about predestination vs free will, but I know I’m not wrong that Christ is my savior no matter how it happened.

That's something we have to be thankful for.

 

[Hmm]

Hi up

Do you guys not understand Scripture and the gospel any better than that?

Speaking for myself, no

 

[RickReads]

I pretty much think the same. I'm not sure either but one thing's for sure, no plausible argument has been presented in this thread on the opposing side.

I guess it depends on how plausible you consider the scriptures to be. I would skip the debate about what hell, eternity, etc. mean as terms and make my arguments based on standards revealed by the Bible which are almost always if not always retributive in nature.

That consists of a large supply of scriptures that would not be so easily dismissed as misunderstood, mistranslated, etc.

 

[Clare73]

I think if I started a thread asking "what do you think Christian universalism teaches?" a lot of incorrect assumptions would be presented.

Probably the biggest group of objectors are Evangelical Fundamentalists.

Good for them, it's because they know their Scriptures.

Why should we acquaint ourselves with what contradicts the God-breathed Scriptures?

We recognize Biblical untruth the same way IRS agents recognize counterfeit money,
not by studying the counterfeit, but by knowing the genuine, so that when the countefeit shows up
it is easilhy recognized.

That is why your biggest group of objectors are Evangelical Fundamentalists who know their Bibles and the fundamentals of Christianity:
inspiration and infallibility of Scriputre,
deity of Christ,
Christ's virgin birth and miracles,
Christ's penal death for our sins,
Christ's physical resurrection,
Chris'ts personal return.

Would that there were more of them.

This is not Brian.

 

[Hmm]

It is just.

And there is nothing in Scripture anywhere in disagreement with the following teaching:

sin not being forgiven even in the next life (Matthew 12:32)--no universal reconciliation,
burning of the tares/weeds (Matthew 13:30),
unquenchable fire for unforgiven sin (Mark 9:47-48),
burning up (ruin) of the chaff with unquenchable fire (Luke 3:17),
no eternal life, only wrath for those who reject Christ (John 3:36),
unending second death (Revelation 20:14-15, Revelation 20:10).

Your literal interpretation of these verses makes for an odd definition of the word ”just”

 

[Hmm]

I guess it depends on how plausible you consider the scriptures to be. I would skip the debate about what hell, eternity, etc. mean as terms and make my arguments based on standards revealed by the Bible which are almost always if not always retributive in nature.

That consists of a large supply of scriptures that would not be so easily dismissed as misunderstood, mistranslated, etc.

But what do you do with all the grace parables and verses that just as clearly say the exact opposite?