Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[AV1611VET]

A rose, by any other name, is still a rose. Everyone hopes to be reconciled to God.

I don't mean "Heaven" as a collective term.

 

[Saint Steven]

The issue of hell is a really hard one, but I don't think I would have become a Christian unless we can be lost. I didn't want to be a Christian, you see, but the truth showed me I was on my way downward. The sorrow of missing out on heaven, was a big reason for my repentance.

I appreciate your candor. But here's the big question: Is a fear-based decision valid? Like a confession taken under torture. Extortion.

How many Christians today are victims of spiritual extortion by the church? You said you didn't want to become a Christian. Apparently the threat of hell forced you to decide against your will. That's spiritual extortion. I'm not claiming that you aren't saved. But some sober consideration about motives may be in order.

 

[RickReads]

No it's not. Although I've found it can be stronger in some areas than others. The doctrine of Free Grace is one of those. The automatic objection to it is that it teaches "having a license to sin" and so on.

We could have a big debate on all that. Speaking for myself, I would rather be falsely accused of using grace as a license to sin than to be falsely accused of wanting God to punish with eternal torturing.

But on both counts, it`s just no way to have a meaningful conversation.

 

[Cormack]

the usual argument that Universalism leaves no room for the justice of God. (not true)

The only thing missing from universalism appears to be retributive judgment on other plain human beings. Universalism does lack that, but who would want the PR disaster of saying they love the idea of fierce retributive judgment on another human being for all eternity.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't mean "Heaven" as a collective term.

I don't either. But if you were a Hindu were born in India, what would you call it?

You could argue that their definition is wrong, but they still want to be reconciled to God in the afterlife. That desire mirrors Christian Universalism.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't either. But if you a Hindu were born in India, what would you call it?

"Heaven"

 

[Saint Steven]

The only thing missing from universalism appears to be retributive judgment on other plain human beings. Universalism does lack that, but who would want the PR disaster of saying they love the idea of fierce retributive judgment on another human being for all eternity.

I think it was David Hart Bentley that said the heart of it was the desire to win at someone else's expense. You can't be a BIG winner without a BIG loser. What could be a bigger win than heaven, or a bigger loss than eternity in hell?

 

[RickReads]

I’m waiting on an answer myself to that message. The reply that Rick did compose was just an effort to castigate you for your spicy style of debating, and whether or not that’s something valid to take home and consider, it’s also a red herring.

It would have been more productive to just ask me instead of putting this unnecessary comment on the board.

 

[Cormack]

It would have been more productive to just ask me instead of putting this unnecessary comment on the board.

You have to resist these red herrings my dude.

You claimed that God has a better system than Universalism. How so?

That’s the question.

 

[Saint Steven]

The same person that wrote this...

Same old huff and puff from you Steve. I have not taken any position on hell other than to trust God to do what's best. I suppose that`s why I find all your assumptions and distortions of statements and scriptures offensive.

You can drive people away from participating in discussions with your unfriendly aggression but such tactics will not prove your case to anyone who might have considered your views. You operate on your own power rather than in the power of the Spirit of Christ and you come across like someone with bitterness issues.

Now writes this.

It would have been more productive to just ask me instead of putting this unnecessary comment on the board.

 

[Hmm]

You probably meant "exhortations". - lol

That was a Freudian slip lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Many will come unglued at any suggestion of punishment for sin.

"... punishment for sin", there's a topic.

Is this how it works?
1) We are born sinful. (through no choice of our own)
2) The punishment is a forever burning hell.
3) But don't complain because it was your choice.

 

[Hmm]

The sorrow of missing out on heaven, was a big reason for my repentance.

Would you not still have repented though, after becoming aware that you are capable of wrong doing, if you had become aware of a God who loved and had provided heaven for everyone? And would not this be a repentance driven by love and gratitude rather than by fear of missing out on heaven and so, in a way, a more authentic kind of repentance?

 

[AV1611VET]

"... punishment for sin", there's a topic.

Is this how it works?
1) We are born sinful. (through no choice of our own)
2) The punishment is a forever burning hell.
3) But don't complain because it was your choice.

You left some steps out:

1. We are born sinful.
2. The punishment is a forever burning Hell.
3. Christ died for our sins and draws all men unto Himself.
   
4. Whosoever shall call upon His name shall be saved.
5. Some prefer to "pull back unto perdition," however.
6. Said persons wind up in Hell.
7. But don't complain because it was your choice.

 

[RickReads]

You have to resist these red herrings my dude.



That’s the question.

I often refuse answers, opinions, and/or information when others have caused me to lose interest in a thread. In fact, I have probably just lost interest in universalism permanently.

My only interest in any religious issue is simply developing an understanding of what God thinks about it.

 

[Hmm]

You left some steps out:

Deliberately and justifiably so I would imagine.

 

[Hmm]

In fact, I have probably just lost interest in universalism permanently

But universalism has not lost interest in you

 

[zoidar]

Would you not still have repented though, after becoming aware that you are capable of wrong doing, if you had become aware of a God who loved and had provided heaven for everyone? And would not this be a repentance driven by love and gratitude rather than by fear of missing out on heaven and so, in a way, a more authentic kind of repentance?

"More authentic"? There is no such thing. Either it's repentance or it's not repentance.

There might be other reasons people repent. I don't think I would have repented if I thought I would end up in heaven either way.

 

[RickReads]

But universalism has not lost interest in you

I`ve been looking at it on and off since my Yahoo group days. I respect Cormack's intellect and his admission that universalism excludes retributive penalties for unforgiven imputed sin really renders universalism unbiblical in many ways.

To his credit, he is the first universalist to give me a straight answer on that.

Mind you it`s not any great change. I still have my doubts about eternal punishing.

 

[Hmm]

"More authentic"? There is no such thing.

You may not be as confident of that if you listen to people who suffer from excessive guilt or ”scrupulosity" as it's termed in some religious traditions.