Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[AV1611VET]

The Greek manuscripts the KJV translators used are still in existence.

So?

And one can look at them and see the word γέενναν.

So?

Here's a clear example of a KJV mistranslation: "And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn." Mark 2:23 KJV.

Okay.

Corn did not exist in Israel at that time.

Really? you were there then?

Genesis 27:26 And his father Isaac said unto him, Come near now, and kiss me, my son.
27 And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the LORD hath blessed:
28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:

I would have to assume that God honored Isaac's request.

Wouldn't you?

God didn't just give them corn, He gave them plenty of corn.

 

[RickReads]

Are you sure about that?

Yes, I am. Pauls's gospel is the arrangement for the times of the Gentiles. Your assertions about the word having additional meaning in Greek doesn`t change anything.

Paul said the world will be judged according to his gospel. Anyone who understands that knows Paul's gospel is the arrangement.

It doesn`t change the times nor does it change the fact that by the declaration of Christ the Prophets must be fulfilled before this world can end.

 

[ozso]

No, it isn't.

Not everyone wants Heaven.

Universalism says you're getting it, whether you want it or not.

Precisely!

You can't run fast enough to hang it on them.

Does Scripture say that "Not everyone wants Heaven"?

 

[Clare73]

Show me where there's a cross reference to Luke 16:19-31 in the Old Testament, because that's how a mature Bible student would go about it.

It was Jewish belief based on Isaiah 66:24, which is why we find it in the NT.

This is not Brian.

 

[Albion]

The Greek manuscripts the KJV translators used are still in existence. And one can look at them and see the word γέενναν.

Here's a clear example of a KJV mistranslation: "And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn." Mark 2:23 KJV.

Corn did not exist in Israel at that time. The KJV translators mistranslated στάχυας (stachuas) 4719: a head of grain as "ears of corn".

You are mistaken. "Corn" refers to the most common or characteristic grain. In the USA, that's Maize...so we Americans call it "corn" and think that we're necessarily referring to those yellow kernels that grow on what we call ears. However, in another country where Maize is uncommon, corn is something else.

CORN - Definition from the KJV Dictionary (av1611.com)

 

[Clare73]

Yes, I am. Pauls's gospel is the arrangement for the times of the Gentiles.

And there is no authoritative NT basis for any time/age after the NT church which is the time of the Gentiles, for according to Paul's gospel

the church is the fulfillment of the ages (plural)--1 Corinthians 10:11, and

the church is the last times, and the end of the ages (plural)--1 Peter 1:20; Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 9:26.

Your assertions about the word having additional meaning in Greek doesn`t change anything.

Correction: those aren't "additional" meanings, those are the only meaning, and which excludes your misinterpreation of the word oikonomia, which does not mean epoch, but a mode of dealing.

Paul said the world will be judged according to his gospel. Anyone who understands that knows Paul's gospel is the arrangement.

And Paul's gospel presents no time/age after the church--the time of the Gentiles (see the above).

It doesn`t change the times nor does it change the fact that by the declaration of Christ
the Prophets must be fulfilled before this world can end.

And unfulfilled prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8) are subject to more than one interpretation.

So let's begin with Daniel. Has Daniel 2:31-45 been fulfilled?

 

[AV1611VET]

Show me where there's a cross reference to Luke 16:19-31 in the Old Testament, because that's how a mature Bible student would go about it.

Oh, please.

I can't cross-reference Jesus walking on water.

I'm sure you've heard the old saying: Jesus is in the Old Testament concealed, and in the New Testament revealed?

Even the dispensation we are in today (Grace) was considered a mystery.

One that the angels didn't even know about.

1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Pop quiz: When Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1, why did He stop at the comma?

 

[ozso]

It was Jewish belief based on Isaiah 66:24, which is why we find it in the NT.

That would be one of the added teachings of the Pharisees, and Jesus condemned those.

This is not Brian.

Huh?

 

[ozso]

Oh, please.

I can't cross-reference Jesus walking on water.

I'm sure you've heard the old saying: Jesus is in the Old Testament concealed, and in the New Testament revealed?

Even the dispensation we are in today (Grace) was considered a mystery.

One that the angels didn't even know about.

1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Pop quiz: When Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1, why did He stop at the comma?

You're having to come up with roundabout arguments because you can't address the matter directly.

 

[AV1611VET]

Does Scripture say that "Not everyone wants Heaven"?

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

 

[AV1611VET]

You're having to come up with roundabout arguments because you can't address the matter directly.

And you're being facetious in your requests.

 

[ozso]

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Good example of taking scripture out of context.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. John 5:39-40

 

[ozso]

And you're being facetious in your requests.

There's nothing facetious in asking you to cross reference Luke 16 to the OT, since you say it's in there.

 

[Clare73]

Does Scripture say that "Not everyone wants Heaven"?

Your point? . . .Does it say that they do?

This is not Brian.

 

[Clare73]

That would be one of the added teachings of the Pharisees, and Jesus condemned those.

"Those" is not "all."

This is not Brian.

 

[ozso]

"Those" is not "all."

This is not Brian.

Once again, huh?

 

[ozso]

Your point? . . .Does it say that they do?

It was a question, not a point.

This is not Brian.

I don't know why you keep writing that, but if you're going to get goofy on me, I'm going to put you on ignore.

 

[Cormack]

I pointed out that the word universalism has nothing to do with determinism, replying that people all wind up saved isn’t much of a response.

On the contrary, it has to do with where everyone winds up.

Determinism is a philosophical mechanism to do with how God interacts with the world, some determinists believe in annihilationism, others believe in the traditional stance, while others have moved on into believing in universalism.

The mechanics of how people arrive in the Kingdom according to the vast majority of universalists is via libertarian freewill, not determinism.

Everybody being saved doesn’t make a view deterministic, in the same way that everyone being damned wouldn’t make a view deterministic. The Bible teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” for example, but everyone doing something doesn’t mean determinism. Everyone being saved doesn’t mean determinism.

Everything else you’ve shared is just the typical ma theology most rightest therefore I reject universalism, which we are not discussing in this topic (though could be discussed in millions of threads elsewhere.)

 

[ozso]

So?So?Okay.Really? you were there then?

Genesis 27:26 And his father Isaac said unto him, Come near now, and kiss me, my son.
27 And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the LORD hath blessed:
28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:

I would have to assume that God honored Isaac's request.

Wouldn't you?

God didn't just give them corn, He gave them plenty of corn.

Now that's being facetious.

 

[Cormack]

Over 500 messages in and I’m still waiting on a valid reason to prefer another view over universalism. Honestly, I never expected such a dearth of reasons before making this topic.

“Ma theology is true facts god said so” isn’t the one guys, it’s just not the one.