Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Cormack]

Universalism does the same--by definition. If it were not so, we wouldn't be calling it universalism.

You should really separate what you believe is the logical conclusion to a persons view with what the actual persons thinks and believes about universalism.

Insisting that you can reject universalism for denying freewill while the universalist affirms freewill right to your face, that’s a very silly and disingenuous road to go down.

 

[ozso]

So absence of "eternal" in the OT is your basis for concluding it is not "eternal," but temporal.

I conclude them as temporal because those warnings come to fruition. And yes, because there is a total absence of any waring whatsoever that there is a place of eternal torment, from all those who gave out a slew of judgements and warnings.

What do you conclude from the absence of the following in the OT?

God is three in one? (Matthew 28:19)
The Kingdom of God is spiritual, invisible, within, not physical? (Luke 17:20-21; John 18:36)
The kingdom would be taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles? (Matthew 21:43)
Salvation is by faith without works? (Ephesians 2:8-9)

This is not Brian.

This is why cherry picking verses sometimes (or often) doesn't give the whole message of a passage in the NT, book of the NT or the whole work of the NT with which to build a doctrine on.

However in this case, nowhere in the entire Old Testament, in all 39 books, is there anything to be found to build a doctrine of a place eternal conscious torment on. I imagine that you really really want there to be, but sorry there just isn't.

 

[Cormack]

No -- universalism rules out freewill.

How so? Since universalists affirm freewill, a kind of freewill that goes on unmolested by God at its core and for all eternity.

Sounds like people are simply refusing to listen to the universalists. Plugging their ears.

 

[Clare73]

So absence of "eternal" in the OT is your basis for concluding it is not "eternal," but temporal.
What do you conclude from the absence of the following in the OT?
God is three in one? (Matthew 28:19)
The Kingdom of God is spiritual, invisible, within, not physical? (Luke 17:20-21; John 18:36)
The kingdom would be taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles? (Matthew 21:43)
Salvation is by faith without works? (Ephesians 2:8-9)

I conclude them as temporal because those warnings come to fruition. And yes, because there is a total absence of any waring whatsoever that there is a place of eternal torment, from all those who gave out a slew of judgements and warnings.

This is why cherry picking verses sometimes (or often) doesn't give the whole message of a passage in the NT, book of the NT or the whole work of the NT to build a doctrine on.

However in this case, nowhere in the entire Old Testament, in all 39 books, is there anything to be found to build a doctrine of a place eternal conscious torment on. I imagine that you really really want there to be, but sorry there just isn't.

The emperor has no clothes.

This is not Brian.

 

[AV1611VET]

You should really separate what you believe is the logical conclusion to a persons view with what the actual persons thinks and believes about universalism.

"Logic," per se, can take a hike.

I'm more interested in the theological, than the logical.

I want what God wants, and although He says it is not His will that any should perish, He still gives us a choice.

Universalism gives people a false sense of security.

 

[AV1611VET]

However in this case, nowhere in the entire Old Testament, in all 39 books, is there anything to be found to build a doctrine of a place eternal conscious torment on.

Luke 16

 

[Cormack]

See the topic isn’t….

“would you prefer it if what you think of as universalism turns out to be true?”

The game isn’t “make universalism an unattractive prospect and then reject the unattractive prospect you just made up,” that’s called strawmanning.

A very naughty and not good thing to do.

 

[ozso]

What's "Gehenna"?

I don't see that word in my Bible.

Well you see, what you're reading in your Bible, is an English translation of what was written in Greek. The Greek word that gets translated as "hell" is γέενναν (geennan) which is 1067: Gehenna, a valley W. and S. of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly.

Mark 9:43 Lexicon: "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

 

[ozso]

Luke 16

Luke 16 is not in the Old Testament.

 

[AV1611VET]

How so? Since universalists affirm freewill, a kind of freewill that goes on unmolested by God at its core and for all eternity.

So Hitler is in Heaven, pushing his Final Solution unmolested?

 

[Cormack]

"Logic," per se, can take a hike.

Anyone who air quotes logic clearly doesn’t have a very strong grasp of the thing they are devaluing.

Thank you for the contribution anyway.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well you see, what you're reading in your Bible, is an English translation of what was written in Greek.

You were there when the Gospel writers wrote it?

If any Hebrew or Greek translations disagree with the King James Bible, said Hebrew or Greek translations are wrong.

 

[Albion]

Insisting that you can reject universalism for denying freewill while the universalist affirms freewill right to your face, that’s a very silly and disingenuous road to go down.

You may think so, but that denies the definition and nature of universalism.

None of us has to "take a side" in order to recognize that "universalism" by definition means everybody. Period. And that in turn requires God to make it so.

Any rationalization that tries to have its salvation "cake" and to "eat it, too" is devising a theory that he may personally wish for...but it isn't universalism, no matter what those people call it or themselves.

 

[AV1611VET]

Luke 16 is not in the Old Testament.

A mature Bible student knows to take the whole of Scripture, not just parts of It.

Lest they end up on the road to Damascus.

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Exercise your freewill and get off that road.

 

[AV1611VET]

Anyone who air quotes logic clearly doesn’t have a very strong grasp of the thing they are devaluing.

Good.

Why would I want to strongly grasp something I'm telling to "get lost"?

If you were being attacked by a dog, would you hold him by the collar and yell GIT!?

Thank you for the contribution anyway.

You're welcome anyway.

 

[Cormack]

@Albion

Yes universalism, meaning what? Everyone universally eats cake, has their rights removed, drives on the wrong side of the road?

No, universalism means that the saving is universal in scope.

It’s not a statement about the specifics of how people got saved by Jesus, just that everyone will be saved by Jesus.

The name universalism doesn’t swing in any direction, whether that be freewill theism or determinism.

That’s why both groups find a place under the umbrella of universalism.

So again, the word universalism has nothing to do with deterministic theology and everything to do with the scope of Christ’s saving sacrifice.

 

[ozso]

You were there when the Gospel writers wrote it?

If any Hebrew or Greek translations disagree with the King James Bible, said Hebrew or Greek translations are wrong.

The Greek manuscripts the KJV translators used are still in existence. And one can look at them and see the word γέενναν.

Here's a clear example of a KJV mistranslation: "And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn." Mark 2:23 KJV.

Corn did not exist in Israel at that time. The KJV translators mistranslated στάχυας (stachuas) 4719: a head of grain as "ears of corn".

You do know that the translators of the KJV put in a preface regarding their translation not being perfect, don't you?

The Embarrassing Preface to the King James Version - Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary

 

[Albion]

So again, the word universalism has nothing to do with deterministic theology and everything to do with the scope of Christ’s saving sacrifice.

On the contrary, it has to do with where everyone winds up.

And merely to assume or stipulate that every last person is heaven-bound because that would be nice of God to mandate is just wishful thinking of the sort that humans often engage in.

What's more, there is virtually no Scriptural basis for this idea which one would think would be much in evidence if true. Meanwhile, the Scriptural basis for some of us being lost is unavoidable. So when it comes to whether I'd prefer universal salvation, I think I would, but it is also necessary to say that I'd be siding with a position that I know, up front, is impossible.

When any of us turns to citing Bible passages in the course of discussing this subject, universal salvation, it's a good idea to step aside from the theorizing long enough to consider also what the "bottom line" is when it comes to what the Bible has to say about the matter.

 

[ozso]

A mature Bible student knows to take the whole of Scripture, not just parts of It.

Lest they end up on the road to Damascus.

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Exercise your freewill and get off that road.

Show me where there's a cross reference to Luke 16:19-31 in the Old Testament, because that's how a mature Bible student would go about it.

 

[Clare73]

No, it isn't.

Not everyone wants Heaven.

Universalism says you're getting it, whether you want it or not.

Precisely!

You can't run fast enough to hang it on them.