Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[RickReads]

So, what were you trying to say here? (see quote below) How did "faith in God's justice" deliver you from unforgiveness?

RickReads said: ↑
... I`ve struggled with forgiveness issues in the past. Faith in God`s justice delivered me from it. ...

I`m not comfortable sharing anything more with you about it apart from saying it is always liberating to turn things over to God. It`s the key to many types of healing.

 

[Saint Steven]

But there is no reason to think that we have the completely wrong idea about who he is and what he is about.

If everything we know about God comes from the Bible, that's a real problem. But if we get into that here, we will be even farther off topic.

I'm guessing you weighed in on the topic question and answered "No, you would not prefer Universalism to be true." Is that correct?

 

[RickReads]

So now you are accusing me of having a weak position? After admitting that you are failing to communicate. Wow. Okay.

I admitted no such thing but I see a lot of these petty little comments of yours on the board which is why I avoid your posts. I should have been a little more careful when you approached me today to attack me.

And yes your positions are weak because you like to pick and choose which scriptures you want to believe in.

 

[Albion]

If everything we know about God comes from the Bible, that's a real problem.

First, it doesn't matter that we don't know "everything" about God. It would not be possible for us in our condition to know everything about the Almighty, eternity, and so on.

Knowing him is the issue and, yes, the Bible gives us the answers that we need. Not everything that can be known, of course, but that isn't necessary. The Bible has the answers that we need when it comes to knowing who the true God is.

I'm guessing you weighed in on the topic question and answered "No, you would not prefer Universalism to be true." Is that correct?

Nope. I said the exact opposite.

 

[Saint Steven]

I`m not comfortable sharing anything more with you about it apart from saying it is always liberating to turn things over to God. It`s the key to many types of healing.

That's fine. I don't want you to share personal stuff here. But...

Obviously having faith in God's justice to deliver you from forgiveness issues indicates a problem with unforgiveness. Even by extension into "God's justice".

You would probably be quite disappointed if God did not avenge sufficiently for you. That doesn't spell forgiveness to me.

Saint Steven said: ↑
So, what were you trying to say here? (see quote below) How did "faith in God's justice" deliver you from unforgiveness?

RickReads said: ↑
... I`ve struggled with forgiveness issues in the past. Faith in God`s justice delivered me from it. ...

 

[Saint Steven]

And yes your positions are weak because you like to pick and choose which scriptures you want to believe in.

Everyone does that. In case you didn't notice, they are still scriptures in both cases. How can either one be wrong?

 

[Cormack]

Secondly, near as I can tell, all of God`s judgement on sin is retributive in nature. To take that out would mean we believe that there will no punishment for sin. If that is the case then we both know universalism wouldn`t be viable.

Your original idea was that Christian people wanted Gods “justice,” not “judgment,” justice isn’t always about retribution, although however you and I slice the terminology pie you get both upon presupposing universalism. Justice, judgment, retribution, they’re all featured. You can get all three at the foot of the cross.

The demands of justice are either fully satisfied by Christ (universalism) or they are met by some combination of Christ plus the death and torment of the damned (the traditional perspective.)

So to argue that “justice” is a good reason to prefer the traditional perspective over universalism doesn’t pan out, there’s justice on both views.

The point of difference is that one group imagines the whole of the demands of justice served by one perfect man named Jesus Christ. While the other perspective requires not just that Christ suffer, but also that all of our enemies suffer too.

Again I’m not saying there’s no good reasons to prefer the traditional perspective over the universalist perspective, however, I’ve not come across any reasons that stand up to scrutiny in the topic.

I appreciate your contribution to the topic @RickReads and if you feel there are possibly other reasons to prefer the traditional perspective over the universalist perspective, I’m sure we would have another great conversation on those reasons.

 

[RickReads]

That's fine. I don't want you to share personal stuff here. But...

Obviously having faith in God's justice to deliver you from forgiveness issues indicates a problem with unforgiveness. Even by extension into "God's justice".

You would probably be quite disappointed if God did not avenge sufficiently for you. That doesn't spell forgiveness to me.

Saint Steven said: ↑
So, what were you trying to say here? (see quote below) How did "faith in God's justice" deliver you from unforgiveness?

RickReads said: ↑
... I`ve struggled with forgiveness issues in the past. Faith in God`s justice delivered me from it. ...

I sure hope you aren`t a counselor of some kind. You would surely do a lot of harm with all of your assumptions.

 

[Cormack]

I'm guessing you weighed in on the topic question and answered "No, you would not prefer Universalism to be true." Is that correct?

You’d be surprised. I believe @RickReads originally sided on his preference being for the universal reconciliation of everybody. Although the topic has developed into another debate about which view is most rightest in the universe , and as a result I think Rick’s been drawn into feeling he needs to defend himself and some of his ideas.

God bless you both, there’s no need to defend in that way. There’s liberty in this faith and with Christ’s people.

 

[RickReads]

Your original idea was that Christian people wanted Gods “justice,” not “judgment,” justice isn’t always about retribution, although however you and I slice the terminology pie you get both upon presupposing universalism. Justice, judgment, retribution, they’re all featured. You can get all three at the foot of the cross.

The demands of justice are either fully satisfied by Christ (universalism) or they are met by some combination of Christ plus the death and torment of the damned (the traditional perspective.)

So to argue that “justice” is a good reason to prefer the traditional perspective over universalism doesn’t pan out, there’s justice on both views.

The point of difference is that one group imagines the whole of the demands of justice served by one perfect man named Jesus Christ. While the other perspective requires not just that Christ suffer, but also that all of our enemies suffer too.

Again I’m not saying there’s no good reasons to prefer the traditional perspective over the universalist perspective, however, I’ve not come across any reasons that stand up to scrutiny in the topic.

I appreciate your contribution to the topic @RickReads and if you feel there are possibly other reasons to prefer the traditional perspective over the universalist perspective, I’m sure we would have another great conversation on those reasons.

Thx but I believe I`m about done with this thread. Steve has me about to go on the warpath and I got better ways to spend my time.

 

[Cormack]

That rascal Steve.

 

[Saint Steven]

I sure hope you aren`t a counselor of some kind. You would surely do a lot of harm with all of your assumptions.

I'm glad you are in counseling. That should help eventually.

Be patient though, it can takes years and years. And if you ask them when you will be better, they will stare at you blankly. The end is not near. You must learn to cope.

 

[Saint Steven]

Thx but I believe I`m about done with this thread. Steve has me about to go on the warpath and I got better ways to spend my time.

It's been real. Please stop by later if you need your chain yanked. - lol

 

[RickReads]

I'm glad you are in counseling. That should help eventually.

Be patient though, it can takes years and years. And if you ask them when you will be better, they will stare at you blankly. The end is not near. You must learn to cope.

No Steve I`m not and have never been in counseling. But by all means, continue to attack my character then turn around and deny it. That's about your speed.

 

[Saint Steven]

... The point of difference is that one group imagines the whole of the demands of justice served by one perfect man named Jesus Christ. While the other perspective requires not just that Christ suffer, but also that all of our enemies suffer too. ...

I like how that is stated. Reminds me of this. Not only for ours? Hmm... ???

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[RickReads]

It's been real. Please stop by later if you need your chain yanked. - lol

I`ve engaged several universalists over the years trying to find one that has a winning argument. Apart from Cormack, I`ve found them to be poor examples, not a lot of difference between them and people of this world.

 

[Saint Steven]

No Steve I`m not and have never been in counseling. But by all means, continue to attack my character then turn around and deny it. That's about your speed.

Are you claiming that people in counseling have a bad character? That's not very nice.

Besides, counseling is helpful to those who need it. Don't knock it until you have tried it.

 

[Saint Steven]

I`ve engaged several universalists over the years trying to find one that has a winning argument. Apart from Cormack, I`ve found them to be poor examples, not a lot of difference between them and people of this world.

Do you fancy yourself to be superior to "people of this world"? Probably not warranted.

Sorry @Cormack
I need to stop replying to him. I'll let him have the last word. (what he wants)
He said he was done in post #170

 

[Saint Steven]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the consensus seems to be a big fat "NO!"

Most prefer to keep their hell doctrine, thank you.

I wonder what they love so much about it.

Is it the revenge factor, or the tribal requirement to stick with the standard doctrine? What is so attractive about countless billions suffering eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape that gives them a warm safe feeling? Just sickening really.

 

[Albion]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the consensus seems to be a big fat "NO!"

The fact is that there has been no consensus at all.