Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Hmm]

It is also not my place to criticize Him for doing other than what I consider to be the more moral, or fair/just or loving action.

This is off topic but I've never understood that. How can anyone truly love and worship a God who they deep down consider to be immoral. Our views about what's right and wrong do matter.

 

[Albion]

This is off topic but I've never understood that. How can anyone truly love and worship a God who they deep down consider to be immoral. Our views about what's right and wrong do matter.

Maybe they cannot bring themselves to do that. However, that's a failing on their part, not God's.

This is a constant problem with casual debates over religion--making God be what we, from our limited range of knowledge, think he "ought" to be, and making our decision to follow him be conditioned on him being in step with our own ethical values.

 

[RickReads]

This is off topic but I've never understood that. How can anyone truly love and worship a God who they deep down consider to be immoral. Our views about what's right and wrong do matter.

Our views matter to God as well.

Isaiah 3:14 The Lord will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

God is seen here judging with the input of some important human beings. Hebrews also, tells us about a great cloud of witnesses who see what goes on.

When God`s judgment comes everything will be out in the open. No secret hid. All the righteous, all the angels as witnesses.

God has the task of administering justice that the righteous will agree is just and be satisfied with. When He is done all will know He is worthy.

 

[grasping the after wind]

This is off topic but I've never understood that. How can anyone truly love and worship a God who they deep down consider to be immoral. Our views about what's right and wrong do matter.

Many people are attracted to immorality. Some even worship immoral people. So worshipping a god they considered immoral would not be a stretch. Of course most people worship that which they approve of and think is morally upright. If any particular person worshipped a god that I considered to be immoral, say something like one the Mayan gods that required human sacrifice, I expect that person would have a different take from myself on what constitutes right and what constitutes wrong. The US currently has two very large camps of people that consider the other camp to be immoral and champions of the wrong against the right. How would a disinterested observer of those two camps understand if they both claimed to worship the same god? The assumption that a human must make in considering a god to be immoral is that the human is morally superior to the god. That would be necessary in order to judge that god to be immoral because that god has come to a different conclusion about what is right and wrong than the human has. If the human does not make that assumption then the human cannot judge the god's morality at all as the human would not consider himself qualified to do so. I expect the human that worships a god must assume that the god knows better about such things than the human does and therefore will trust that the god is correct about what is right and wrong.

 

[Hmm]

Maybe they cannot bring themselves to do that. However, that's a failing on their part, not God's.

This is a constant problem with casual debates over religion--making God be what we, from our limited range of knowledge, think he "ought" to be, and making our decision to follow him be conditioned on him being in step with our own ethical values.

I'm not sure what you mean by casual - cognitive dissonance is a very real phenomenon. It wouldn't be healthy to try to hold a belief together in a God who does not share your moral values.

 

[Saint Steven]

... I`ve struggled with forgiveness issues in the past. Faith in God`s justice delivered me from it. ...

You seem to be confirming what you thought I was accusing you of.
Is it really forgiveness if you transferred your hatred of a person to God to let him fulfill it for you? Wouldn't you be terribly hurt and disappointed if God granted them mercy when you were trusting Him to blast them? Would that NOT be justice in your view?

Christians should be careful not to heat hell to be so hot that they do singe themselves. (quote stealing, I know)

 

[Saint Steven]

... If any particular person worshipped a god that I considered to be immoral, say something like one the Mayan gods that required human sacrifice, I expect that person would have a different take from myself on what constitutes right and what constitutes wrong...

That is shockingly close to the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. (hell)

 

[grasping the after wind]

I'm not sure what you mean by casual - cognitive dissonance is a very real phenomenon. It wouldn't be healthy to try to hold a belief together in a God who does not share your moral values.

There are two paths one can then take. To reject the god or reorder your values to come into agreement with the values of the god. I think Albion would suggest the latter course for Christians.

 

[grasping the after wind]

That is shockingly close to the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. (hell)

Not really. Being a human sacrifice is a very intense but fairly short torment. Not at all like an eternal torment.

 

[Hmm]

There are two paths one can then take. To reject the god or reorder your values to come into agreement with the values of the god. I think Albion would suggest the latter course for Christians.

Or you could take the third path of considering that your understanding of God may be wrong.

 

[Albion]

I'm not sure what you mean by casual - cognitive dissonance is a very real phenomenon. It wouldn't be healthy to try to hold a belief together in a God who does not share your moral values.

Agreed, but what that means is we ought to shop around for a god who meets OUR demands. If the Christian god doesn't seem militant enough or forgiving enough or something else like that, there's always some other religion.

But if we do that, what does it say about us truly believing in and following God because he IS god?

 

[RickReads]

You seem to be confirming what you thought I was accusing you of.
Is it really forgiveness if you transferred your hatred of a person to God to let him fulfill it for you? Wouldn't you be terribly hurt and disappointed if God granted them mercy when you were trusting Him to blast them? Would that NOT be justice in your view?

Christians should be careful not to heat hell to be so hot that they do singe themselves. (quote stealing, I know)

Excuse me for getting a little personal. My mistake. What I see from you is more false accusations. I never hated anyone so there was no transfer of hatred. I love for God to have mercy and pray always for that. You continue to distort my comments which is something people typically do when they have a weak position.

You should be more careful with your assumptions because you could end up being the one getting singed.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not really. Being a human sacrifice is a very intense but fairly short torment. Not at all like an eternal torment.

So, you are claiming that ECT (hell) is worse than pagan idolatry? Very good. We are making some progress then. Thanks.

So, Universalism would be preferable then, correct?
Since hell is worse than pagan idolatry.

 

[Saint Steven]

Agreed, but what that means is we ought to shop around for a god who meets OUR demands. If the Christian god doesn't seem militant enough or forgiving enough or something else like that, there's always some other religion.

But if we do that, what does it say about us truly believing in and following God because he IS god?

I don't think most Christians would recognize God if they met him on the street. We seem to have the complete wrong idea about who he is and what he is about.

 

[Albion]

I don't think most Christians would recognize God if they met him on the street. We seem to have the complete wrong idea about who he is and what he is about.

I don't see any reason to think that.

 

[Hmm]

Agreed, but what that means is we ought to shop around for a god who meets OUR demands. If the Christian god doesn't seem militant enough or forgiving enough or something else like that, there's always some other religion.

But if we do that, what does it say about us truly believing in and following God because he IS god?

That's true. I'm sure we both believe though that the God we have as Christians is a supremely good God and so there is no question of any immorality in Him. I would say that whenever these questions arise it's because of s faulty conception of Him.

Anyway, I've inadvertently detailed the interesting topic of this thread so I'll pull out of the discussion for a while.

 

[Saint Steven]

Excuse me for getting a little personal. My mistake. What I see from you is more false accusations. I never hated anyone so there was no transfer of hatred. I love for God to have mercy and pray always for that. You continue to distort my comments which is something people typically do when they have a weak position.

You should be more careful with your assumptions because you could end up being the one getting singed.

So, what were you trying to say here? (see quote below) How did "faith in God's justice" deliver you from unforgiveness?

RickReads said: ↑
... I`ve struggled with forgiveness issues in the past. Faith in God`s justice delivered me from it. ...

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't see any reason to think that.

Thanks for proving my point. - lol

Saint Steven said: ↑
I don't think most Christians would recognize God if they met him on the street. We seem to have the complete wrong idea about who he is and what he is about.

 

[Albion]

Thanks for proving my point. - lol

Saint Steven said: ↑
I don't think most Christians would recognize God if they met him on the street. We seem to have the complete wrong idea about who he is and what he is about.

But there is no reason to think that we have the completely wrong idea about who he is and what he is about.

 

[Saint Steven]

You continue to distort my comments which is something people typically do when they have a weak position.

So now you are accusing me of having a weak position? After admitting that you are failing to communicate. Wow. Okay.