Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

Hmm

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Yes, I would want it to be true, but it’s not about my wants over the will of the Father.

That would only be true if what you really want deep down and what the Father wants is different. But as we're all made in the image of God, that isn't so. It's actually a strawman because:

Faith is confidence in what is hoped for
Hebrews 11:1.​

Can anyone really have faith and hope in the destruction and eternal suffering of others? God tells us that He desires all to be saved so how can not have faith and hope in this?
 
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a-lily-of-peace

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That would only be true if what you really want deep down and what the Father wants is different. But as we're all made in the image of God, that isn't so. It's actually a strawman because:

Faith is confidence in what is hoped for
Hebrews 11:1.​

Can anyone really have faith and hope in the destruction and eternal suffering of others? God tells us that He desires all to be saved so how can not have hope in this?
David wrote many psalms praying for the destruction of his enemies and the punishment of the unrighteous. It feels strange to hear them now, in the context of the gospel and blessing those who curse us, turning the other cheek and knowing that while we were enemies of Christ, He died for us.

So I can’t make a theology of it, but I hope I die with nothing but forgiveness of others in my heart and can bring that as an offering.
 
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rturner76

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I do wish it was true. It makes me sad that so many people have to burn for eternity. It's like an eternity is quite a long time. I would think they'd be ready to repent after a couple of years on fire. I think never-ending suffering is too harsh. But I'm not God so it doesn't matter how I feel about it.
 
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Hmm

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It makes me sad that so many people have to burn for eternity.

It makes me sad that so many people see God as someone who is capable of doing this. Jesus called God "Abba" an intimate term for Father meaning something more like "Daddy" and that's how we need to see God too - not as an eternal torturer if we hold incorrect views.

But I'm not God so it doesn't matter how I feel about it.

God gave you discernment, feelings, a sense of justice and a reasoning mind. If you think being set on fire forever is too harsh, it's because it is.
 
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Albion

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Part of this "problem" of believing that some mortals will be lost is that we approach it with firm and uncomplicated beliefs about what God will do, cannot do, how it will seem or feel, etc. and what everything associated with being damned means.

We are less likely to do that when the conversation turns to heaven, I'm thinking, because people then are more willing to say that we cannot imagine what wonders God has prepared for those who love him and do right.

With hell, though, the tendency is to say that it has to be just like we we told it is in Dante's Inferno, so burn means burn, fire means fire, torture is gonna be physical torture and etc.
 
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rturner76

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It makes me sad that so many people see God as someone who is capable of doing this. Jesus called God "Abba" an intimate term for Father meaning something more like "Daddy" and that's how we need to see God too - not as an eternal torturer if we hold incorrect views.



God gave you discernment, feelings, a sense of justice and a reasoning mind. If you think being set on fire forever is too harsh, it's because it is.
My heart believes we will all receive mercy at some point but people beat me down with bible verses that say nonbelievers go to hell and I can't always dispute these verses though there are places in the Bible where it says things like

"For to this end we toil and strive because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

So there is a debate to be had on this issue. Frankly, I'm confused because in my heart I believe God won't let us suffer for eternity but there are so many places in the Bible that say nonbelievers go to hell.

things like:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

and among others:
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality."


It gets confusing where the Bible contradicts itself though I have been told it doesn't, it sure seems to.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Part of this "problem" of believing that some mortals will be lost is that we approach it with firm and uncomplicated beliefs about what God will do, cannot do, how it will seem or feel, etc. and what everything associated with being damned means.

We are less likely to do that when the conversation turns to heaven, I'm thinking, because people then are more willing to say that we cannot imagine what wonders God has prepared for those who love him and do right.

With hell, though, the tendency is to say that it has to be just like we we told it is in Dante's Inferno, so burn means burn, fire means fire, torture is gonna be physical torture and etc.

Keep in mind that the works of Dante, Milton and Mary K Baxter are FICTION.
 
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Lazarus Short

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My heart believes we will all receive mercy at some point but people beat me down with bible verses that say nonbelievers go to hell and I can't always dispute these verses though there are places in the Bible where it says things like

"For to this end we toil and strive because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

So there is a debate to be had on this issue. Frankly, I'm confused because in my heart I believe God won't let us suffer for eternity but there are so many places in the Bible that say nonbelievers go to hell.

things like:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

and among others:
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality."


It gets confusing where the Bible contradicts itself though I have been told it doesn't, it sure seems to.

Have you considered a Bible version without "hell"? There are quite a few. I have three versions without the word.
 
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Albion

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Keep in mind that the works of Dante, Milton and Mary K Baxter are FICTION.
Of course, but....the popular conception of heaven and hell as well as innumerable other matters has been formed by such literature or by non-religious commentators. It shouldn't be that way, we could argue, but it is.
 
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Hmm

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My heart believes we will all receive mercy at some point but people beat me down with bible verses that say nonbelievers go to hell and I can't always dispute these verses though there are places in the Bible where it says things like

"For to this end we toil and strive because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

So there is a debate to be had on this issue. Frankly, I'm confused because in my heart I believe God won't let us suffer for eternity but there are so many places in the Bible that say nonbelievers go to hell.

things like:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

and among others:
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality."


It gets confusing where the Bible contradicts itself though I have been told it doesn't, it sure seems to.

I think it's natural to be in the conflict you are in because most people are. Because of how most people are taught Christianity, Universalism is seen as the belief of a mad minority. I've looked into this as an amateur (I've had no formal Christian training so this is just my personal views and apologies if I've got Universalism wrong) because my interest was piqued by this thread and from what I've read it's not clear to what degree universalism was supported by the early church - it's subject to debate by theologians and historians. There are links to evidence including ECF's writings in this thread that support Universalism but there are also opposing views.

I think the other main issue is that scripture is always going to be ambiguous to.some extent. What you or I find compelling might not be so to someone else. A big question is how we deal with these ambiguities. Catholics turn to the Magesterium of the Church and Protestants turn to their favourite leader. I don't know enough to comment on the Orthodox church's views but I believe they are more open, or at least not dogmatic, on the issue than we are used to in the West. We all have our favourite way of approaching Biblical interpretation. The result is that some, and it seems the majority at the moment, are going to fall back on verses that oppose Universalism but I understand that Universalism is becoming popular again because it makes for a humane and sane reading of scripture - the idea of (ECT) Eternal Conscious Torment (or is it Torture?) is completely mad, I'm sure we all know that really :)
 
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rturner76

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Have you considered a Bible version without "hell"? There are quite a few. I have three versions without the word.
I don't have one but I have seen translations that use the word "hades" instead
 
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rturner76

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it makes for a humane and sane reading of scripture - the idea of (ECT) Eternal Conscious Torment - or is it Torture - is completely mad, I'm sure we all know that really :)
Yeah, I see Jesus as a humanitarian in his time as he forgave many sinners in his ministry and that forgiveness seemed to set them on a better path of gratitude rather than living in shame waiting for your eternal torment.
 
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Hmm

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Yeah, I see Jesus as a humanitarian in his time as he forgave many sinners in his ministry and that forgiveness seemed to set them on a better path of gratitude rather than living in shame waiting for your eternal torment.

I'd say go with your instincts, and I need to too. I need deprogramming from all the blasphemous ideas I've ever received about God sending people to eternal torment simply because they held the wrong beliefs at the moment of death.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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Obviously God thinks that the salvation of all is the perfect plan, but he seems unable to execute it. I was lead to believe that he was capable of executing any plan... flawlessly.
Of course, he can save everyone, but the reason he doesn't is not revealed in the Bible. On the other hand, the mystery of sin is how Satan, the other fallen angels, and humans could have sinned, though they were God's perfect creations. Not everything is revealed; the challenge is to submit to that fact.
 
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Cormack

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Of course, he can save everyone, but the reason he doesn't is not revealed in the Bible.

Isn’t that assuming the very thing up for discussion in many of the posts found here?

The idea that eternal torment is a done deal (despite God being able to “save everyone” in your words) causes a logical disconnect between Gods stated aim, His desire for all to be saved and His ability to achieve the desires of His heart.

The alternative to assuming the very thing that’s causing all that cognitive dissonance is to instead adopt (or at least hope on) the restoration of all things back to God.

Rather than assume that people are lost and continue to pursue this discordant, unchristianlike image of a loving God who torments and spurns his own image in man, many posters believe in and highlight scripture that point towards the total and complete achievement of Gods aims, the satisfaction of His desires and the ultimate idea that His will is done.

Preferring that image of God isn’t just to believe in or to promote the most loving portrait of God, but also the most victorious one.
 
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rturner76

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Isn’t that assuming the very thing up for discussion in many of the posts found here?

The idea that eternal torment is a done deal (despite God being able to “save everyone” in your words) causes a logical disconnect between Gods stated aim, His desire for all to be saved and His ability to achieve the desires of His heart.

The alternative to assuming the very thing that’s causing all that cognitive dissonance is to instead adopt (or at least hope on) the restoration of all things back to God.

Rather than assume that people are lost and continue to pursue this discordant, unchristianlike image of a loving God who torments and spurns his own image in man, many posters believe in and highlight scripture that point towards the total and complete achievement of Gods aims, the satisfaction of His desires and the ultimate idea that His will is done.

Preferring that image of God isn’t just to believe in or to promote the most loving portrait of God, but also the most victorious one.
My brother wrote his thesis on Universal Salvation that's based on the notion God has the desire to save everyone and God has the ability to save everyone. So God does what he desires in the end. He passed the process of defending his thesis to the Catholic College he went to so I think there is some merit to the theory of U.S.
"Hades" carries its own load of theo-illogical baggage, being the name of a pagan Greek "god."
I think "Hades" found its way into the Bible because it was the Greek word for the afterlife/underworld. But I'm no scholar so I could easily be corrected.
 
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Albion

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There may be ways to justify Universal Salvation, but the Scriptural basis is much weaker than the case for some of us being lost. That's certain. So, there's always logic to turn to, if that is supposed to trump divine revelation.

But either way, the familiar argument that has shown up more than once here--God would have all to be saved--does not in any way mean that he will or has to save everyone. It's nothing more than what would be ideal if there were nothing more involved. Unfortunately for some people, there IS more involved.
 
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a-lily-of-peace

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My brother wrote his thesis on Universal Salvation that's based on the notion God has the desire to save everyone and God has the ability to save everyone. So God does what he desires in the end. He passed the process of defending his thesis to the Catholic College he went to so I think there is some merit to the theory of U.S.

I think "Hades" found its way into the Bible because it was the Greek word for the afterlife/underworld. But I'm no scholar so I could easily be corrected.
You’re right, the original Greek text used the word “hades” in a lot of what we translate as “hell”.

Strong's Greek: 86. ᾅδης (hadés) -- Hades, the abode of departed spirits
 
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He passed the process of defending his thesis to the Catholic College he went to so I think there is some merit to the theory of U.S.

I think it’s safe to write that in amidst popular Christian culture the wealth of thought around universal restoration has been overlooked, underrepresented and routinely misunderstood. Sounds as though thanks to higher education your brother was gifted an opportunity to really think through and defend what we consider taboo on the ground floor.

That’s pretty cool.
 
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