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I think if I started a thread asking "what do you think Christian universalism teaches?" a lot of incorrect assumptions would be presented.
Probably the biggest group of objectors are Evangelical Fundamentalists.
So? I don't see in MY Bible where it says anything about us being saved by our "free will". You must have one of those custom translations.Then I'll reiterate:
No -- universalism rules out freewill.
Did it occur to you that they might want Valhalla? Nirvana? annihilated? Shangri-La? and a thousand other places besides Heaven?Wow. There's the twisted logic of Damnationism.
(parody)
"Those who end up in hell chose it." (it's their own fault) and "Universalism forces people into heaven against their will." (God would never do that to us) "But he would incinerate us. And that's fine and dandy. It's what you wanted, right?"
It isn't, though.Not if it's true.
Two words: Paschal's wager.Saint Steven said:Damnationism gives people a false sense of fear. (the reason it was created in the first place.)
To have a legitimate discussion all issues would have to on the table and dealt with rationally. I try to approach issues from a neutral point of view if I`m trying to learn things. In the case of Universalism
I`ve looked for someone who could prove their case. I`ve been disappointed and have found them to engage me unfairly just to try to win the argument.
Many will come unglued at any suggestion of punishment for sin i.e. Steve.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.So? I don't see in MY Bible where it says anything about us being saved by our "free will". You must have one of those custom translations.
Unfortunately you are a rare breed. It seems most are on a mission to disprove it rather than explore it. So you're likely to automatically get lumped in with them.
Well, I did explore it. I do find verses that muddy the waters a bit concerning hell. As a consequence, I ceased to have a solid position on the hell issue. My preference is to say I don`t know what God is going to do (Which I don`t). I don`t really relate to hell because I find it a disturbing topic and I don`t expect to go there. I just trust that I will be satisfied with God`s decisions and enjoy the peace of not being involved in it. I find that looking at it that way makes it easier for me to forgive others.
I believe incorrect assumptions appear on most threads opened up to opposing views so I`m not sure that`s anything out of ordinary.
Universalism makes a lot of sense so thanks @Cormack for raising the topic.
A definition of grace I like is that there nothing we can do to make God loves us more, and nothing we can do to make God love us less. A few comments have said that universalism isn't biblical but I think the parables of grace like the Prodigal Son, the king who cancels the debt that the servant couldn't possibly pay off and the employer who pays the latecomers the same as the all-day crew do support the idea because they say that we don't have to do anything in order to be accepted by God - saved in other words.
I think the comments about Hitler are natural because we intuitively think that a price has to be paid for such crimes. But if the price has been paid by Jesus on the cross then this moral dilemma between justice and forgiveness has been solved once and for all.
The idea mentioned in this discussion that God would be forcing us to go to Heaven if we don't want to go this overriding our free will don't hold water. If we are created in His image then we are meant to want to be with Him however much we were corrupted like Hitler was while on earth.
I started off hoping that all will be saved but I'm beginning to think we all will be. The simplest argument for it is that it's what God would want because we are His beloved children and He will ultimately achieve His desire.
We should thank @RickReads for providing that breakthrough due to his intellectual honesty and friendly pushback earlier in the discussion.
You claimed that God has a better system than Universalism. How so?... I have not taken any position on hell other than to trust God to do what's best. ...
You claimed that God has a better system than Universalism. How so?
A rose, by any other name, is still a rose. Everyone hopes to be reconciled to God.Did it occur to you that they might want Valhalla? Nirvana? annihilated? Shangri-La? and a thousand other places besides Heaven?
Absolutely. He dodged the question.I’m waiting on an answer myself to that message. The reply that Rick did compose was just an effort to castigate you for your spicy style of debating, and whether or not that’s something valid to take home and consider, it’s also a red herring.
What did you say earlier about a Universalism bias? My, my.Well, I did explore it. I do find verses that muddy the waters a bit concerning hell.
You probably meant "exhortations". - lolI'm not sure how all the extortions in the Bible to be obedient and do good works etc fit in with universalism. ...
Right.If there’s a better system (that’s not grounded in assuming universalism is false from the get go,) let’s be having it.
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