Would the rebuilding of the Jerusalem Third Temple stabilize the climate???

[dfw69]

The other possibility is that the Jerusalem Third Temple is built by a King Cyrus type who is led by God and then 42 months later an Antiochus type takes over and kicks the true worshippers out of the Temple Mount area!!!!

In our era of elections swinging all over the place....this should not be a difficult concept to understand!!!



Isaiah 66 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

Isaiah 66:5 ¶ Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies."

Something about this verse makes me wonder if perhaps Zechariah 14 cannot be fulfilled until AFTER....the Third TEmple is built???!!!

A king Cyrus type?... Where can I read about him?.. Don't know anything about him,

 

[DennisTate]

If the temple were rebuilt it wouldn't be relevant to Christianity--that's part of my point. The other part of my point is that according to the writings collected as the New Testament the concept of Temple is not about a structure standing in Jerusalem, but in the Person of Jesus and by extension the Church itself.

.....

-CryptoLutheran

There are a lot of questions as to exactly how the whole world gets to that place where everybody....from the least to the greatest....knows God! Surely it would assist in the process to have all nations that freely allow Jews and Noahides to travel back and forth to Jerusalem....and all of a sudden their climate is radically more stable with rain coming in due season..........surely there would be some news people who would take notice of this happening........which would tend to assist in all people coming to know and follow the God of Abraham to a degree that has not been seen on the earth .....well....ever!!!!

 

[dfw69]

Yes......because if and when a recognizable modern King David type is raised up for the Jewish people....it will be Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua causing this to happen!!


Luke 24:25 "Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:"


Jeremiah 30:9 "But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."


In a sense Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua seemed at least somewhat disappointed with his disciples that they failed to recognize John the Baptist as the fulfillment of Elijah.....Will the David type who is raised up for the Jewish people happen in a similar manner?????

Matthew 17 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)
Matthew 17:10 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

Jesus wants us to wait for his actual return ... Not look for someone who claims to be yahushua ...in fact that's a specific warning.... Jesus does not come in spirit... Elijah does not come in spirit... Both actually come in the future....David will be literally resurrected... David will be here also...

The first mission of Christ and John the babtist was for a specific purpose... To redeem man... Had the Jews understood this ... They would not have killed him...

John was not Elijah ..and Jesus did not come to establish a literal kingdom... But a spiritual one ...they had a commission ... Jesus was not trying to fulfill the prophecies of restoration for the jews...It was just a day of visitation ... But the idea of 'god with us' was just too much to handle for their 'by the book' theology...

 

[DennisTate]

A king Cyrus type?... Where can I read about him?.. Don't know anything about him,

Isaiah chapter 42 through 46.


Isaiah 45 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

Also back on page one of this discussion I quote an article by a man from Uganda that gives one of the best theories on what a modern King Cyrus type of person would be like that I have ever read!


I personally agree with the understanding that virtually every significant event of Biblical history....has a somewhat similar fulfillment in the latter days!!

Isaiah 34:16 ¶ "Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them."

 

[dfw69]

There are a lot of questions as to exactly how the whole world gets to that place where everybody....from the least to the greatest....knows God! Surely it would assist in the process to have all nations that freely allow Jews and Noahides to travel back and forth to Jerusalem....and all of a sudden their climate is radically more stable with rain coming in due season..........surely there would be some news people who would take notice of this happening........which would tend to assist in all people coming to know and follow the God of Abraham to a degree that has not been seen on the earth .....well....ever!!!!

It will be obvious when all the prophecies of the messianic kingdom is fulfilled ... For the Jews

For the Christians... All the prophecies of the New Testament fulfilled...

They are one and the same ... If one looks to only the old... Or the new... They will fail... But if one looks to all... It will be realized...and no one will be in doubt

 

[dfw69]

Isaiah chapter 42 through 46.


Isaiah 45 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

Also back on page one of this discussion I quote an article by a man from Uganda that gives one of the best theories on what a modern King Cyrus type of person would be like that I have ever read!


I personally agree with the understanding that virtually every significant event of Biblical history....has a somewhat similar fulfillment in the latter days!!

Isaiah 34:16 ¶ "Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them."

Thank you

 

[DennisTate]

Jesus wants us to wait for his actual return ... Not look for someone who claims to be yahushua ...in fact that's a specific warning.... Jesus does not come in spirit... Elijah does not come in spirit... Both actually come in the future....David will be literally resurrected... David will be here also...

The first mission of Christ and John the babtist was for a specific purpose... To redeem man... Had the Jews understood this ... They would not have killed him...

John was not Elijah ..and Jesus did not come to establish a literal kingdom... But a spiritual one ...they had a commission ... Jesus was not trying to fulfill the prophecies of restoration for the jews...It was just a day of visitation ... But the idea of 'god with us' was just too much to handle for their 'by the book' theology...

The Apostle John was pretty clear that Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua was somehow The Word/Logos.....who I personally believe is identifiable with the God of Abraham.....who spoke with Moses face to face.....yet the Christian Bible teaches that no man has seen the Father....so this must have been somebody else that Moses saw!!!???


John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]."


John 1:1 ¶ "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God.All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Judaism does teach that Moshiach will have an experience where the Spirit of Moshiach stored in Gan Eden will descend on him!

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/101679/jewish/The-Personality-of-Mashiach.htm

Any time is a potential time for the coming of Mashiach.7 This does not mean, however, that at the appropriate time he will suddenly emerge from Heaven to appear on earth.8 On the contrary: Mashiach is already on earth, a human being of great saintly status (a tzadik) appearing and existing in every generation. “In every generation is born a progeny of Judah fit to be Israel’s Mashiach!”9

On the particular day that marks the end of the galut, when Mashiach will redeem Israel, the unique pre-existing soul of Mashiach ‘stored’ in Gan Eden from aforetimes will descend and be bestowed upon that tzadik.10 R. Mosheh Sofer summarizes this principle in his responsa:

(Rabbi Jacob Immanuel Schochet)


I personally don't know for sure whether Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua was the Word/Logos from birth......or perhaps received the Spirit of Moshiach when the Holy Spirit descended on him like a dove at the baptism by John?????


Matthew 3:16 "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

 

[DennisTate]

It will be obvious when all the prophecies of the messianic kingdom is fulfilled ... For the Jews

For the Christians... All the prophecies of the New Testament fulfilled...

They are one and the same ... If one looks to only the old... Or the new... They will fail... But if one looks to all... It will be realized...and no one will be in doubt

True....but if the Catholic Bible is inspired.....as I believe it is....then the final Elijah person will have a role that will seem Messianic!!!!

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Ecclesiasticus Chapter 48

And Elias the prophet stood up, as a fire, and his word burnt like a torch......Who anointedst kings to penance, and madest prophets successors after thee. [9] Who wast taken up in a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot of fiery horses. [10] Who art registered in the judgments of times to appease the wrath of the Lord, to reconcile the heart of the father to the son, and to restore the tribes of Jacob."

The restoration of the tribes of Jacob might seem to be something for the era of Messiah/Moshiach...but actually this occurs during the time of the final Elijah!!!!!!
Mat 17:11 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things."

Could perhaps the Jerusalem Third Temple be included in ALL THINGS?????????!!!!!!

Oh....many from the lost tribes of Israel are Moslems......and the restoration of the lost tribes might look a lot like:

Mary A Burris:
"February 6, 2009

While spending time with the Lord He reminded me of Ali's funeral (Ali was my first husband who was murdered in 94/95) and how the Holy Spirit had me praying in tongues and in travail for the muslim people's salvation in Christ Jesus.

He assured me that He heard my prayer that day. Suddenly I became very excited in my spirit and asked the Holy Spirit

"What's going on?"

This is what He said:

You'll see... It'll be explosive when it happens. They will flock towards salvation as the hardness is lifted off of their hearts and the scales are removed from their eyes. They are a passionate people but their purpose has not yet been served. Upon the fulfillment of their role in the history of mankind there will be a flood of souls pouring into the kingdom of God for His glory. They have been scorned, they have been accused, but the ones who are pure in heart shall see God. When He reveals Himself to them in all His glory they will prostrate themselves before Him in a way they have never done before. When He opens the eyes of their understanding and unstops their ears to hear what His Holy Spirit is revealing the waves of tears of repentance will flood the ground they occupy and they will be purged once and for all time of the stains of their unbelief. The Lord is calling out for a pure and holy nation before God and He will do as He chooses and choose as He pleases and mankind will truly stand in awe of His mighty Majesty and Splendor as the precious souls are ushered into His kingdom.

GIVE HIM PRAISE AND GLORY!(Mary Burris, from the Facebook group, Power Packed Prayers)

 

[DennisTate]

Thank you

And I deeply appreciate your livening up this important discussion dfw69!!!!

 

[dfw69]

The Apostle John was pretty clear that Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua was somehow The Word/Logos.....who I personally believe is identifiable with the God of Abraham.....who spoke with Moses face to face.....yet the Christian Bible teaches that no man has seen the Father....so this must have been somebody else that Moses saw!!!???


John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]."


John 1:1 ¶ "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God.All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Judaism does teach that Moshiach will have an experience where the Spirit of Moshiach stored in Gan Eden will descend on him!

The Personality of Mashiach - Mashiach in Jewish Law
(Rabbi Jacob Immanuel Schochet)


I personally don't know for sure whether Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua was the Word/Logos from birth......or perhaps received the Spirit of Moshiach when the Holy Spirit descended on him like a dove at the baptism by John?????


Matthew 3:16 "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

He was always the word....he is god... And that may be true that Moses saw god the son... Not the father... I believe god is 3 beings...this is difficult to grasp for Jews that believe god is only one being...

But David was anointed as a young man... And did not become king till much later... Jesus anointing before man who testify means god has anointed him to be son of David and heir to the throne... So he was accepted by god... But because he was rejected... God raised him... And now has an appointed time to obtain what truly belongs to him...

But he was always the word

 

[dfw69]

True....but if the Catholic Bible is inspired.....as I believe it is....then the final Elijah person will have a role that will seem Messianic!!!!

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Ecclesiasticus Chapter 48

And Elias the prophet stood up, as a fire, and his word burnt like a torch......Who anointedst kings to penance, and madest prophets successors after thee. [9] Who wast taken up in a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot of fiery horses. [10] Who art registered in the judgments of times to appease the wrath of the Lord, to reconcile the heart of the father to the son, and to restore the tribes of Jacob."

The restoration of the tribes of Jacob might seem to be something for the era of Messiah/Moshiach...but actually this occurs during the time of the final Elijah!!!!!!
Mat 17:11 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things."

Could perhaps the Jerusalem Third Temple be included in ALL THINGS?????????!!!!!!

Oh....many from the lost tribes of Israel are Moslems......and the restoration of the lost tribes might look a lot like:

Idk... But I believe the false prophet of rev is an Elijah wannabe... Any emphasis on him scares me..,... All I know is true Elijah comes with another witness (Enoch) ... Together they preach of the soon coming of Jesus with all the saints and angels... And they preach against the idol worship of the third temple... Many will believe their testimony...

 

[DennisTate]

He was always the word....he is god... And that may be true that Moses saw god the son... Not the father... I believe god is 3 beings...this is difficult to grasp for Jews that believe god is only one being...

But David was anointed as a young man... And did not become king till much later... Jesus anointing before man who testify means god has anointed him to be son of David and heir to the throne... So he was accepted by god... But because he was rejected... God raised him... And now has an appointed time to obtain what truly belongs to him...

But he was always the word

Now I personally believe that King David was an anointed king from the very day that the Prophet Samuel anointed him with oil and prayed for him....but he did not officially receive the kingdom until much later.

This is a principle that can be profoundly encouraging to all of us who have a calling on our lives.....but our circumstances may seem mundane at the moment!

I am pretty sure that Jerusalem is a metaphor for the church and the time is indeed coming when citizens of both the literal Jerusalem as well as the metaphorical Jerusalem will be taken up to a level that is hard for us to imagine right now:


Zechariah 12:8 "In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them."

Luke 7:28 "For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

 

[dfw69]

Now I personally believe that King David was an anointed king from the very day that the Prophet Samuel anointed him with oil and prayed for him....but he did not officially receive the kingdom until much later.

This is a principle that can be profoundly encouraging to all of us who have a calling on our lives.....but our circumstances may seem mundane at the moment!

I am pretty sure that Jerusalem is a metaphor for the church and the time is indeed coming when citizens of both the literal Jerusalem as well as the metaphorical Jerusalem will be taken up to a level that is hard for us to imagine right now:


Zechariah 12:8 "In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them."

Luke 7:28 "For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

 

[DennisTate]

Idk... But I believe the false prophet of rev is an Elijah wannabe... Any emphasis on him scares me..,... All I know is Elijah comes with another witness (Enoch) ... Together they preach of the soon coming of Jesus with all the saints and angels... And they preach against the idol worship of the third temple... Many will believe their testimony...

The false prophet as an Elijah wannabe!!!!

That is a logical theory.....but we should keep in mind that the real Elijah and Cyrus combination probably make it possible for the Jews to rebuild their Temple and offer sacrifices whereas the False Prophet type.....cause the sacrifices to CEASE after 42 months!!!!!

Now I believe that the sacrifices of the Third Temple as originally given to Moses are not idol worship but are genuine acts of obedience to fulfill an extremely difficult role that is an important part in the restoration of the entire planet and the ushering in of the true era of Messiah where even the nature of animals will be altered!

 

[dfw69]

The false prophet as an Elijah wannabe!!!!

That is a logical theory.....but we should keep in mind that the real Elijah and Cyrus combination probably make it possible for the Jews to rebuild their Temple and offer sacrifices whereas the False Prophet type.....cause the sacrifices to CEASE after 42 months!!!!!

Now I believe that the sacrifices of the Third Temple as originally given to Moses are not idol worship but are genuine acts of obedience to fulfill an extremely difficult role that is an important part in the restoration of the entire planet and the ushering in of the true era of Messiah where even the nature of animals will be altered!

Well we should keep in mind that Jesus said many false Christ and false prophets... Some say that this has always been fulfilled throughout history ... But I believe Jesus is referring to specific times... Where a false messianic age takes place in future history... So many self proclaim messiahs and self proclaim Elijah's come during a false messianic age or era...

What I mean about the idol worship in the temple is when the final false messiah and final false prophet make an idol or image of the beast ... And place it in the temple... It's a golem... IMO

But several false Christ and false prophets come before the final ones... These are going to be some difficult times... Because of the deceptions to come for power...

What the world can expect is an age of deception .. In which a false messianic age is manipulated...

 

[DennisTate]

Well we should keep in mind that Jesus said many false Christ and false prophets... Some say that this has always been fulfilled throughout history ... But I believe Jesus is referring to specific times... Where a false messianic age takes place in future history... So many self proclaim messiahs and self proclaim Elijah's come during a false messianic age or era...

What I mean about the idol worship in the temple is when the final false messiah and final false prophet make an idol or image of the beast ... And place it in the temple... It's a golem... IMO

But several false Christ and false prophets come before the final ones... These are going to be some difficult times... Because of the deceptions to come for power...

What the world can expect is an age of deception .. In which a false messianic age is manipulated...

Aha yes....you mean the idolatry part was fulfilled in history when Antiochus Epiphanes set up an image of Zeus in the Temple as it existed at that time?!

Abomination of desolation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 1 Maccabees usage of the term points to the actions of Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the mid-2nd century BC. Specifically, he set up an altar to Zeus in the Second Temple in Jerusalem, and sacrificed swine on it around the year 167 BC.[citation needed] Many modern scholars believe that Daniel 9:27, 11:31 and 12:11 are prophecies after the event relating to Antiochus.[8][9]

Many modern Biblical scholars[10] conclude that Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 are prophecies after the event about the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70 by the Roman general Titus.[11]

 

[dfw69]

Aha yes....you mean the idolatry part was fulfilled in history when Antiochus Epiphanes set up an image of Zeus in the Temple as it existed at that time?!

Abomination of desolation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No... That's the preterist theory... They think everything is fullfilled

I'm a futurist... There is a future fulfillment...Antiochus was a type of the coming final antichrist

Antiochus may have put a statue of Jupiter or Zeus but revelation teaches the idol is an image of himself... So Antiochus cannot be a fulfillment of the abomination of desolation ... The idol resembles the coming final antichrist who thinks he is god...his idol is a golem built by a false Elijah

 

[DennisTate]

No... That's the preterist theory... They think everything is fullfilled

I'm a futurist... There is a future fulfillment...Antiochus was a type of the coming final antichrist

Antiochus may have put a statue of Jupiter or Zeus but revelation teaches the idol is an image of himself... So Antiochus cannot be a fulfillment of the abomination of desolation ... The idol resembles the coming final antichrist who thinks he is god...his idol is a golem built by a false Elijah

Wow.....the idea that the idol is really of the anti-Messiah guy himself is a fascinating concept......and by the way I deeply appreciate the blessings you put on me yesterday!!!!! This morning I woke up and tackled the biggest theory that I have ever gotten into:


http://www.christianforums.com/t7735229/#post62738588

Unified Theory of Modern World Problems??!!


Is it possible to tackle the biggest problems facing the seven billion inhabitants of this beautiful earth.....simultaneously???

I do believe that it is and I will copy and paste how I just worded this topic in the official Sanhedrin discussion forum:

.............
Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:32 pm Post subject: Unified Theory of Modern World Problems centered on food! I will now try my best to list ten of the most serious problems facing the nations of Israel and my nation Canada. Then I wish to try my best to explain how the production of food in the world's deserts has the potential to address all of these problems simultaneously!!

1. Nuclear WWIII begins, probably in the Middle East!

2. Large scale acts of terrorism involving nuclear or biological agents.

3. Ocean level rise of merely one meter can put one hundred million people worldwide out of their homes which....increases the probability of large scale acts of terrorism.

4. One billion people are hungry and malnourished.

5. The common people in wealthy nations eat food that do not tend to increase our levels of health and longevity.

6. Poverty, unemployment and underemployment worldwide contribute to a mentality of hopelessness that increases the levels of crime, drug abuse and anti-social behavior!

7. Pollution of the water, air and land is affecting the agricultural capability of all nations.

8. Disbelief in the G-d of Abraham/HaShem causes many large companies to act much like a sociopath.

9. The lack of understanding of the fact that The G-d of Abraham/HaShem, the Creator of heaven and earth, cares deeply about all of us due to the fact that HaShem may well have planned and orchestrated an infinite number of Big Bang type events over infinite time in the past so.....having invested astonishing effort over infinite time....G-d has deep emotional involvement in the success of the "human" experiment??!! Our tendency to be unaware of this causes us humans to behave in a somewhat suicidal manner??!!

10. Lack of understanding of how The G-d of Abraham/HaShem is beginning to arise in all 7 billion individuals on earth.....in a somewhat different manner in each individual....due to our vastly different genetic code, background and human spirit/soul....code???!!! If we could see how G-d is beginning to rise up even in our opponents....we would tend to love them as we love ourselves....which would rapidly transform the world economy and political situation.

 

[DennisTate]

No... That's the preterist theory... They think everything is fullfilled

I'm a futurist... There is a future fulfillment...Antiochus was a type of the coming final antichrist

Antiochus may have put a statue of Jupiter or Zeus but revelation teaches the idol is an image of himself... So Antiochus cannot be a fulfillment of the abomination of desolation ... The idol resembles the coming final antichrist who thinks he is god...his idol is a golem built by a false Elijah

I believe that we are in for an exceptionally interesting next couple of decades and centuries!!!

ISLAM IN SCIENCE/BIBLE/HISTORY:
Friday, 23 September 2005

Topic: 9: DESERTS GREEN/MANIFEST

Here is prophecy I personally thought some way to happen:

Book 005, Number 2208:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (way peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour will not come before wealth becomes abundant and overflowing, so much so that a man takes Zakat out of his property and cannot find anyone to accept it from him and till the land of Arabia becomes meadows and rivers.
SAHIH MUSLIM, BOOK 25: The Book on General Behaviour (Kitab Al-Adab)

1.DESERTS GREEN? (Allah knows best)

If mankind is on earth during next ice age (signs from it already there, like Golf-stream slowing down 20% in last five years period, some scientist predict that Britain might have climate of Alaska in next 20 years), deserts of Arabs (Sahara+Middle-East) is going to be green, as they were during last ice age when black Africans inhabited even nowadays deserts of Libya. This has been mentioned in prophecy and hadith of prophet Mohammed (puh), as he said that "deserts of Arabs will once again be filled with rivers and gardens". Noticeably here is for example satellite pictures taken from Saudi-Arabian desert, In these pictures anyone can clearly see old river streams going under desert, and from there founded remains of gardens and agricultural activity. So Mohammed knew without proofs that during last ice age area was green, And so it will be during next ice age after change in climate and rainfalls. But this prophecy does not exclude possibility that humans themselves could make them green, as their actions would anyway be originated from Allah, and it could happen this way:

In Sahara there is these huge "pools", higher ground surrounded lower areas which are these huge "pools" on desert, that some has even big areas under sea-level in bottom of these "pools". These pools mostly are located very near coast-line, and with pumps and pipes of few hundred kilometers these "pools" could be filled with sea-water, until vaporizing (increasing while wideness of "pools" would expand) would match water flowing in, when surface of "pools" would stop rising and around them would be coming huge oasis?s (as sand filters salt from sea-water, when few meters from coast of these "pools" would be easy to get fresh water with dwells and pumps), and these oasis?s could reach kilometers inland as water travels far away in sand. For agricultural activities and inhabitation there would be huge areas to be used, these "pools" would be biggest lakes in the world.

.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/index.blog?topic_id=1021110

 

[DennisTate]

Um...I don't even quite know what to say here.

The topic is certainly confusing!!!! To whatever degree I am incorrect... my apologies... but it has been worthwhile to discuss how this could happen and when?