Would Jesus allow his Church to Teach Falsehoods?

[Standing Up]

You are hopeless.

God is faithful.

 

[chestertonrules]

Thank you. Then the only verifiable apostolic line is from John to Polycarp.

" For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. "

So, the question now is did Polycarp and Rome teach the identical message or not?

FYI:

The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spoke with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand thetradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth.
Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 3) Irenaeus circa 180 AD

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.3 (St. Irenaeus)

 

[chestertonrules]

God is faithful.

True enough.

Do you think he would abandon his Church?

 

[Standing Up]

FYI:

The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spoke with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand thetradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth.
Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 3) Irenaeus circa 180 AD

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.3 (St. Irenaeus)

Okay. Now we have a contradiction between Tertullian and Irenaeus on the succession of Peter. Someone must have pointed out that Peter died in 67 or Clement wasn't pope until 88. What we do not have is a contradiction, but confirmation of the line from John to Polycarp.

" But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, "

Like Tertullian, however, Irenaeus also uses dissimilar language when talking of the surety of the appointment between John and Polycarp than between Peter's successor. Commitment versus appointment. I mean in theory, we too, like Linus, are committed to Christ, but we weren't appointed by apostles like Polycarp.

I think the reason for this is given in 1 Peter. Peter appoints those of Asia Minor.

 

[Standing Up]

True enough.

Do you think he would abandon his Church?

Never. We have the eyewtiness accounts of the greatest event in human history, which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[chestertonrules]

Okay. Now we have a contradiction between Tertullian and Irenaeus on the succession of Peter. What we do not have is a contradiction, but confirmation of the line from John to Polycarp.

" But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, "

Like Tertullian, however, Irenaeus also uses dissimilar language when talking of the surety of the appointment between John and Polycarp than between Peter's successor. Commitment versus appointment. I mean in theory, we too, like Linus, are committed to Christ, but we weren't appointed by apostles like Polycarp.

I think the reason for this is given in 1 Peter. Peter appoints those of Asia Minor.

So you believe that Irenaeus was wrong. Based on what evidence?

Why do you think we find no evidence in the early Church denying that the successor of Peter was in Rome?



More writings for you to consider:


"The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth ... But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who farmed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour; the Church which presides in the place of the region of the Romans, and which is worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of credit, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love..." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, Prologue (A.D. 110).

"There is extant also another epistle written by Dionysius to the Romans, and addressed to Soter, who was bishop at that time. We cannot do better than to subjoin some passages from this epistle…In this same epistle he makes mention also of Clement's epistle to the Corinthians, showing that it had been the custom from the beginning to read it in the church. His words are as follows: To-day we have passed the Lord's holy day, in which we have read your epistle. From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.' Dionysius of Corinth, To Pope Soter (A.D. 171).

"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).

"A question of no small importance arose at that time. For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Saviour's Passover. It was therefore necessary to end their fast on that day, whatever day of the week it should happen to be. But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world to end it at this time, as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast on no other day than on that of the resurrection of our Saviour...Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicated.” Pope Victor & Easter (c. A.D. 195).

"And he says to him again after the resurrection, 'Feed my sheep.' It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided." Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).

 

[Standing Up]

You made the claim that "Peter ordained Clement". Like Tertullian before us, I asked for proof.

There is none. You then agreed, saying "Peter didn't ordain Clement".

That Rome was powerful and remains powerful isn't the question. The question is on what apostle does that power rest? So far, we have zero evidence of any.

We do have, however, clear, noncontradictory, and numerous written witnesses that the apostle John appointed Polycarp.

Your list mentions Victor and Polycrates. Polycrates comes from the line of Polycarp and John. From whose line does Victor come from? Is there evidence he came from Peter? So far, the answer is no.

 

[chestertonrules]

You made the claim that "Peter ordained Clement". Like Tertullian before us, I asked for proof.

I gave you the proof I have. It is convincing for me.

For the sake of this discussion, it is irrelevant. You are grasping this one thread because you have nothing of substance to offer.

There are ample writings confirming the status of the Bishop of Rome as the leader of the Church. I've provided you some above.

 

[Montalban]

You missed my point, or you simply disagree with me. The church is comprised of many individuals who together make up the one body. These individuals will are those who keep the commandments of God. (And no I'm not trying to turn this into a sabbath thread as the commandments of God consist of more than that) Saying that you follow Christ doesn't mean a thing if your practices are in violation of what the scripture teaches.

Excepting that in the Bible are church offices; deacon, priest, bishop.

A structure of believers is important. It's there to prevent every Chrisitan becoming head of their own interpretation - which would lead to millions of divisions (something Protestantism is trying to achieve).

 

[SummaScriptura]

All Christian, Catholic and Orthodox churches and denominations teach some falsehoods. So in answer to your question, "would Jesus allow it?" The answer is a definitve "yes". In God's permissive will, sin exists in the Church.

One might as well ask, "would Jesus allow sin in the Church?"

Moderators: you may close this thread now. The final word has been spoken.

 

[chestertonrules]

All Christian, Catholic and Orthodox churches and denominations teach some falsehoods. So in answer to your question, "would Jesus allow it?" The answer is a definitve "yes". In God's permissive will, sin exists in the Church.

One might as well ask, "would Jesus allow sin in the Church?"

The Catholic Church is being led in the fullness of Truth by the Holy Spirit just as Jesus promised.

All Catholics are sinners, but the Church is the body of Christ.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Catholic Church is being led in the fullness of Truth by the Holy Spirit just as Jesus promised.

All Catholics are sinners, but the Church is the body of Christ.

 

[Standing Up]

All Christian, Catholic and Orthodox churches and denominations teach some falsehoods. So in answer to your question, "would Jesus allow it?" The answer is a definitve "yes". In God's permissive will, sin exists in the Church.

One might as well ask, "would Jesus allow sin in the Church?"

Moderators: you may close this thread now. The final word has been spoken.

Ya gotta be faster than that

 

[Standing Up]

The Catholic Church is being led in the fullness of Truth by the Holy Spirit just as Jesus promised.

All Catholics are sinners, but the Church is the body of Christ.

Please join the other thread to establish two or three witnesses, if we can, of that connection between apostles and the Roman Catholic Church between Peter and Clement or Peter and Linus.

 

[SummaScriptura]

The Catholic Church is being led in the fullness of Truth by the Holy Spirit just as Jesus promised.

All Catholics are sinners, but the Church is the body of Christ.

Has it reformed? It wasn't being led by the fullness of Truth while I was there.

 

[Stryder06]

Excepting that in the Bible are church offices; deacon, priest, bishop.

A structure of believers is important. It's there to prevent every Chrisitan becoming head of their own interpretation - which would lead to millions of divisions (something Protestantism is trying to achieve).

I have no problem with offices in the church, and I agree that there is structure there for a reason. I simply disagree that that church is the Catholic church. And the catholic church saying that it is them because they say so isn't a good enough argument for me.

 

[Stryder06]

The problem with your belief is that people who believe the same things about the bible as you reach drastically different conclusions about central matters of Christian faith. Without a sure guide for intepreting scripture we will be scattered and lost, which is what happened to protestantism.

Catholics believe all the bible is the word of God.

The problem is that men would rather believe a lie. The straight word of God isn't convenient enough for most people, and as such, they toss out it's clear teachings for their own versions of truth. The Guide is the Holy Spirit, not the church. If you haven't noticed, the church is capable of going astray.

And again, it doesn't matter what Catholic believe if their teachings go contrary to what the bible says. I don't believe that any christian doubts that the whole bible is the word of God. It's accepting what God teaches through His word that is the problem.

Depends on the translation.

Clement was ordained as a priest by Peter. He was killed for his faith. What motivation would he have for lying?

I don't know what his motivation would be, but that's a moot point. And I'm sorry but I'm not taking your churches word about who was appointed a priest by anyone. I checked several different translations. None of them are rendered Deacon or Elder. I checked the original words. Neither of them imply elder or deacon. The word pequddah, which is translated as officer in that scripture, means:

- visitation 13, office 5, charge 2, oversight 2, officers 2, orderings 1, account 1, custody 1, numbers 1, misc 4; 32 1) oversight, care, custody, mustering, visitation, store 1a) visitation, punishment 1b) oversight, charge, office, overseer, class of officers 1c) mustering 1d) store

And the word nagas, which is translated as exactors, means

ppressor 7, taskmasters 5, exact 4, distressed 2, oppressed 2, driver 1, exactors 1, taxes 1; 23 1) to press, drive, oppress, exact, exert demanding pressure 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to press, drive 1a2) to exact 1a3) driver, taskmaster, ruler, oppressor, tyrant, lord, exactor of tribute (participle) 1b) (Niphal) to be hard pressed

There is no way you can get Elder and Deacon from those translations as the role of Elder and Deacon is not defined as those words are.

Why do you think the Christians at Corinth consulted Clement about their dispute?

Got me. Not sure what that proves. Especially since Paul talks about wolves coming in among the church who will not spare the flock.

 

[chestertonrules]

Has it reformed? It wasn't being led by the fullness of Truth while I was there.

Of couse it was.

The fact that the followers are flawed has nothing to do with Jesus.

Jesus started one Church.

Why belong to another?

 

[chestertonrules]

The problem is that men would rather believe a lie. The straight word of God isn't convenient enough for most people, and as such, they toss out it's clear teachings for their own versions of truth. The Guide is the Holy Spirit, not the church. .

The Holy Spirit leads the Church flawlessly. You have been instructed to listen to the Church.

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

 

[Stryder06]

The Holy Spirit leads the Church flawlessly. You have been instructed to listen to the Church.

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

That verse confirms that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. That church however is not the catholic church as they fail the test from Isa 8:20. The Holy Spirit is leading those who are listening to His voice. One day soon all those who adhere to the law of God will come together. Many will come from different denominations. Some will come out of Babylon. At at that time will the people of God be clearly distinguished from those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.