Would Jesus allow his Church to Teach Falsehoods?

chestertonrules

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There are a wide variety of conflicting beliefs among protestants. How can these crucial issues be left in doubt?

For example:

Is baptism required for salvation?
Is infant baptism valid?
Is a person once saved always saved?
Are the gifts of the spirit necessary to confirm salvation?
Can sin separate us from God?
Is it necessary to honor the Sabbath?
etc.


How can protestantism be the will of Jesus if it is teaching falsehoods?
 
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1whirlwind

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There are a wide variety of conflicting beliefs among protestants. How can these crucial issues be left in doubt?

For example:

Is baptism required for salvation?
Is infant baptism valid?
Is a person once saved always saved?
Are the gifts of the spirit necessary to confirm salvation?
Can sin separate us from God?
Is it necessary to honor the Sabbath?
etc.


How can protestantism be the will of Jesus if it is teaching falsehoods?


All religions teach falsehood.
 
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chestertonrules

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All religions teach falsehood.


I disagree.

Jesus speaking to his disciples, the leaders of the Church:

John 14
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth.

John 16
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.

Matt 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.


Lies come from Satan. If the Church taught falsehoods then it would have been prevailed upon by the gates of Hades.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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All religions teach falsehood.
Or some just refuse to hear and accept the Truth [such as Judaism and Islam for example] :thumbsup:

Reve 3:9 Behold! I-am-giving out of the synagogue/sunagwghV <4864>of the Satan, to-the ones saying them-selves Judeans to-be and not they-are, but are false.
Behold! I shall be making them that they shall be arriving, and they shall be worshipping before the feet of thee, and they may be knowing that I love/hgaphsa <25> (5656) thee.
 
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1whirlwind

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I disagree.

Jesus speaking to his disciples, the leaders of the Church:

John 14
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth.

John 16
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.

Matt 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.


Lies come from Satan. If the Church taught falsehoods then it would have been prevailed upon by the gates of Hades.


Jesus was speaking to "His church." I said all "religions."
 
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plmarquette

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We all work out our own salvation in fear and trembling ...our beliefs will defend or prosecute us in the last days, what we choose to deny or believe....

We work out our salvation by verifying what we hear ...Malachi 3.10; 1 John 4.1 testing word against the book, against what is within us, against what we have been taught, shown, and experienced

Jesus was opposed to the doctors of theology at the time...pharisees, sadducees, scribes....who had put their spin on God's word, added to His word, made worship, prayer, and praise difficult....

all men will never agree....christianity, judaism, and islam are all 3 mutually exclusive
religions....to embrace on is to deny the other 2....

Paul said faith, hope, love , Jesus, crucified and risen...
Men said...catholic, protestant, messianic-judaism....
Men said we have to belong, observe, then do...which was the heresy of the
Judaizers....the Galatian error...works v's grace
 
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Yarddog

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Lies come from Satan. If the Church taught falsehoods then it would have been prevailed upon by the gates of Hades.
IMHO, there is a difference between a lie and something which may be false, so I have some trouble with the rationalization that Hades may have prevailed
if the Church "may have" misinterpreted something. (I'm not saying that they did, just making a point about this issue.)

How can a Church who honestly believes their interpretation of scripture is correct and shows true love and worship for Jesus Christ be considered lying? Mistaken maybe, but not lying. (Of course, much would depend on exactly what they had interpreted.)

Romans 14 is an example of how we can hold different beliefs and still be accepted by God, depending on the faith of each of us. What matters is if God has accepted what each does.

When we can see the Holy Spirit at work within a church we need to embrace that Church because God called for us to love our brothers and be one. We may not agree on everything, but what family does.
 
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1whirlwind

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We all work out our own salvation in fear and trembling ...our beliefs will defend or prosecute us in the last days, what we choose to deny or believe....

We work out our salvation by verifying what we hear ...Malachi 3.10; 1 John 4.1 testing word against the book, against what is within us, against what we have been taught, shown, and experienced

Jesus was opposed to the doctors of theology at the time...pharisees, sadducees, scribes....who had put their spin on God's word, added to His word, made worship, prayer, and praise difficult....

all men will never agree....christianity, judaism, and islam are all 3 mutually exclusive
religions....to embrace on is to deny the other 2....

Paul said faith, hope, love , Jesus, crucified and risen...
Men said...catholic, protestant, messianic-judaism....
Men said we have to belong, observe, then do...which was the heresy of the
Judaizers....the Galatian error...works v's grace


:amen:
 
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lighthouse_hope

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There are a wide variety of conflicting beliefs among protestants. How can these crucial issues be left in doubt?

For example:

Is baptism required for salvation?
Is infant baptism valid?
Is a person once saved always saved?
Are the gifts of the spirit necessary to confirm salvation?
Can sin separate us from God?
Is it necessary to honor the Sabbath?
etc.


How can protestantism be the will of Jesus if it is teaching falsehoods?

Would Jesus allow Christians to sin?
 
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Stryder06

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There are a wide variety of conflicting beliefs among protestants. How can these crucial issues be left in doubt?

For example:

Is baptism required for salvation?
Is infant baptism valid?
Is a person once saved always saved?
Are the gifts of the spirit necessary to confirm salvation?
Can sin separate us from God?
Is it necessary to honor the Sabbath?
etc.


How can protestantism be the will of Jesus if it is teaching falsehoods?

You bring up a good point, but your thread is based on a premise that doesn't take into account that God doesn't force the will. God has provided His people with everything necessary to understand His word.

A group of people, no matter what denomination, aren't His church, unless they adhere to His word. To the law and the testimony, if they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. The church of today would do well to take that to heart.

Remember too that God says that He alone will do the separating of the wheat from the tares, which must both grow together. In other words, the true and false believers will mingle together within the church until Christ retruns.
 
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Stryder06

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How can a Church who honestly believes their interpretation of scripture is correct and shows true love and worship for Jesus Christ be considered lying? Mistaken maybe, but not lying. (Of course, much would depend on exactly what they had interpreted.)

Remember the words of Christ: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Being sincere isn't an excuse. The bible clearly shows what truth is. Man's traditions have posioned the pure truth of the word of God.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

People would rather believe a lie, and for this reason, God will give them over to believe a delusion.
 
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chestertonrules

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IMHO, there is a difference between a lie and something which may be false, so I have some trouble with the rationalization that Hades may have prevailed
if the Church "may have" misinterpreted something. (I'm not saying that they did, just making a point about this issue.)

How can a Church who honestly believes their interpretation of scripture is correct and shows true love and worship for Jesus Christ be considered lying? Mistaken maybe, but not lying. (Of course, much would depend on exactly what they had interpreted.)


I agree that a Church and or individuals could be sincerely mistaken and therefore not lying by proclaiming a false doctrine.

My point was that this false doctrine could not have come from the leadership of the Holy Spirit.



Romans 14 is an example of how we can hold different beliefs and still be accepted by God, depending on the faith of each of us. What matters is if God has accepted what each does.

I agree. This is also the position of the Church which understands the position of invincible ignorance in God's plan.

When we can see the Holy Spirit at work within a church we need to embrace that Church because God called for us to love our brothers and be one. We may not agree on everything, but what family does.

I believe that Jesus wants us to be one as he and the father are one.

They don't disagree about any doctrine.

We should evangelize in charity and good will, but I believe that as Catholics we should proclaim the truths of our faith.

:)
 
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chestertonrules

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We all work out our own salvation in fear and trembling ...our beliefs will defend or prosecute us in the last days, what we choose to deny or believe....

We work out our salvation by verifying what we hear ...Malachi 3.10; 1 John 4.1 testing word against the book, against what is within us, against what we have been taught, shown, and experienced

Jesus was opposed to the doctors of theology at the time...pharisees, sadducees, scribes....who had put their spin on God's word, added to His word, made worship, prayer, and praise difficult....

all men will never agree....christianity, judaism, and islam are all 3 mutually exclusive
religions....to embrace on is to deny the other 2....

Paul said faith, hope, love , Jesus, crucified and risen...
Men said...catholic, protestant, messianic-judaism....
Men said we have to belong, observe, then do...which was the heresy of the
Judaizers....the Galatian error...works v's grace



Do you believe that Jesus started a Church?
 
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BRISH

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There are a wide variety of conflicting beliefs among protestants. How can these crucial issues be left in doubt?

For example:

Is baptism required for salvation?
Is infant baptism valid?
Is a person once saved always saved?
Are the gifts of the spirit necessary to confirm salvation?
Can sin separate us from God?
Is it necessary to honor the Sabbath?
etc.


How can protestantism be the will of Jesus if it is teaching falsehoods?


~blind post~


We can never speak for others and be completely accurate of intentions or reasonings. So, I'll reply as if I were the complete body of protestants.


I heard what I wanted to hear.

I accepted the Word when it was beneficial to me; therefore, translating in accordance.

I turned away from anything that made me uncomfortable.

I supported certain ideals to others because saying otherwise would usually mean "incriminating" myself.

Period.
Plain and simple.

Our born nature is a sinful one. Pride, arrogance, vanity, jealousy....all of it comes natural to us. We seek comfort in our norms. Until, that is, our eyes are opened to the spiritual realities we have avoided that are all around us. It can be excruciating and very trying to go against the current.

Satan can attack in ALOT of ways. I think the most potent way he uses is division. Division in the body of Christ can be the root cause of some of the biggest issues. If we are not intune with the Spirit, we grab and hold onto falsehoods because it makes us feel better. We have a sinful self-gratifying nature. All satan has to do is plant those seeds of doubt, and then our "natural" attributes run with it. We do the most damage to ourselves.

The text does not cause division. Our interpretations do not cause division. Our intentions/motivations behind our interpretations do cause division though. It's us.

I personally feel it can very dangerous to title yourself a certain religion if it means you hold only to that which is taught in your church. Humans run the churches; therefore, there's danger in following that to a "T".

What I have realized lately is that if you are truly allowing the Spirit to guide you, then you become a part of this "network" where the coincidences are soo frequent and soo accurate that you acknowledge there is one God/Spirit leading us. Our thoughts, goals, perceptions, discernements, joy, and love come from one place and guide us down the same path.

There will always be division in the church here on earth. The question is really this:

Are you going to follow man, or are you going to follow the Spirit?
Are you going to justify your life by saying "well, that's what they said it was", or are you going to be able to say " sought you Lord. Your comforter opened my eyes. I believed because I saw your truth."

Who are you going to follow?
 
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BRISH

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I sort of didn't quite get your question at first.

"How can protestantism be the will of Jesus if it is teaching falsehoods?"



It's not the will of Jesus. His Word is his will.

I don't recall a certain religion being stated as his will. That's what "we've" done to the Word...His will.

There's a great responsibility and consequence thing for those that stand in the shoes of a spiritual leader. For the rest of us, it's up to us to do our own research and seeking. Church, pastors...everything...is there to supplement our spiritual growth. The growth and understanding is up to us though.

We will only answer for ourselves, when that time comes.
 
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