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Would Christianity be different without St Paul?

Dorothy Mae

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Would Christianity be different without St Paul?

Could Christianity survive without his teachings?

I am starting to wonder if we should hold onto the words of Jesus in the NT more than those of Paul. It seems to me that Paul has taken over the NT. Rightly or wrongly so?
I wonder if it isn’t really Paul but theologies that pick and choose bits of his teachings ignored by the rest and what Jesus taught.
 
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zoidar

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Would Christianity be different without St Paul?

Could Christianity survive without his teachings?

I am starting to wonder if we should hold onto the words of Jesus in the NT more than those of Paul. It seems to me that Paul has taken over the NT. Rightly or wrongly so?

Interesting question. Many build their theology from Paul, instead of first going to Jesus teachings, and understanding Paul from them. Maybe the reformers are to blame for this?
 
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Stone-n-Steel

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I follow only the teachings of Jesus as he is the son of God and the one who judges, not Paul.

Jesus forgives sin and it was Gods plan to be so.

But there is nothing truly wrong with the teachings of Paul for his time for the teachings of a man as he was not perfect him self, no man is.

But I only go to the teachings of Jesus as he is the judge and man is not.

I think a more modern translation of this word "followers" is imitator, but you can see what Paul means when he talks about the Christian walk.

1Cor. 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Phil. 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Also, a surprising statement in Romans after Paul compares the Jew and the Gentile.

Rom. 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
 
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The Times

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Would Christianity be different without St Paul?

No.

Could Christianity survive without his teachings?

No.

I am starting to wonder if we should hold onto the words of Jesus in the NT more than those of Paul. It seems to me that Paul has taken over the NT. Rightly or wrongly so?

Paul has nothing to do with your concerns. It was Jesus who stopped Paul on the road to Damascus and it was Jesus who commissioned him.

If it was not Paul, then it would have been someone else.

Christianity wouldn't be any different without Paul and Christianity would survive with or without Paul.

You need to look at who was the person behind Paul's conversion. Jesus is the Head of the Church remember! Hence the teachings would be the same, but through the lips of another spokesman.
 
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The Times

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Paul's words were not Paul's.
Paul's teachings were not Paul's.

So if it was not Paul, then whose words and whose teachings were they?

Jesus Christ, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

If people claim that the words and teachings of Jesus are different to those of Paul, then they have neither understood the teachings of Jesus nor those of Paul for that matter.

I am very concerned that there may be an agenda to relegate Paul's teachings outside of the scope of what is Canon.

Hebrew Roots Movement is one such agenda.
 
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Barney2.0

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Although Saint Paul really developed Christian theology I think Christianity would be off to the worse without him. And would have given in to heretical sects such as the Judaizers.
 
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Colter

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I give priority to Jesus' teaching as well. But there's a danger. Jesus taught that he came to bring the Kingdom of God, that it was based on him, that we were called to join him as its agents, and we would be held accountable for how we responded.

But this is all before his death and resurrection. The early Christian community experienced the resurrected Jesus, as someone they could have spiritual communion with, and as the source of new life. Do we ignore that half of the story because Jesus didn't say anything about it during his life? It's that half of the story that we see in Paul and the Gospel of John. You can say that his followers created a whole new thing that he wouldn't have approved of, and ignore Paul. But it seems reasonable to say that Jesus can't have been expected to teach about that during his life because it wouldn't have made sense, and thus the early church experience with the resurrected Jesus is also something we should include in our faith.

Paul isn't the only witness. But he's the most detailed.
Hi Hedrick, I always like your wise and mature insights on CF. I agree that the Gentile world experienced the resurrected Jesus and the story of parts of his life from Paul and his followers. But sooooo much of the focus of Paul, and subsequent Christianity, was/is about the death and resurrection, overlooking the triumphant life that Jesus had already demonstrated.


The central focus in the religion of Jesus was sharing the inner life with the Father, his Father, our Father. What was added after the ascension and the outpouring of the spirit of truth was the Father and Son combined in one gift.

Faith in the Father, a decidedly dedicated life to doing Gods will was the constant in Jesus' teaching. After Jesus left, with the most spectacular of all of his miracle's fresh in their minds, the death and resurrection of the presumptive redeemer of the church emotionally overwhelmed the earlier gospel of Jesus. The institutional church replaced the Kingdom of Heaven ideal embodied in Jesus' gospel. Peter, Paul and others unintentionally replaced the religion of Jesus with a religion about Jesus. There we have remained in stunted confusion ever since, eventually reaching a point of inelasticity in the Christian doctrines.


The original Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven as taught and lived by Jesus of Nazareth, was largely lost, overwritten in the subsequent recollections of Jesus AFTER the new assumptions colored the gospel accounts. They assumed Jesus would soon return, when he didn't and under the well intentioned influence of the new gospel taught by Paul & company, they wrote the NT.
 
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~Anastasia~

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The gospels were not written as Jesus spoke. They were written at some point many years later by people who recalled what He spoke (or recalled what they heard that He spoke)--by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

That same Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write what the Holy Spirit wanted him to write.

It doesn't make sense to think that the Holy Spirit who inspired one set of unknown writers was less reliable than the Holy Spirit who inspired Paul.
Of course the Gospels were not written as Jesus spoke. Again, I never meant to imply they were.

However, they did involve participation of witnesses.

Paul alone among the Apostles (I'm not saying he wasn't one or shouldn't be) "came late" to the game, as it were. Still, that matters not much as he did "meet Christ" and was directly taught of the Holy Spirit.

I'm not sure how you view the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The epistles of course had that inspiration, but I don't consider it as something like automatic writing or being directly dictated. The voice and inclinations of the writer show through.

For these reasons - I (and many others) would say that the recalled words of Christ Himself by witnesses and brought to remembrance of the Holy Spirit - have some preeminence over the words penned by those whom the Holy Spirit has taught and is bringing principles to mind. All are true. All are inspired. But some parts of Scripture are more important (to many of us). And that's all I'm saying. If you don't agree, that's fine. I'm a little surprised so much back and forth is necessary over this. :)

But for example, the Beatitudes and the Lord's Prayer - are far more significant to us (Orthodox) than many other randomly chosen passages. The Gospels are more significant than the epistles. The New Testament is more significant than the Old. And so on.

If someone else sees it differently, that's fine. But I don't know anyone who in practice would rate, say, the OT genealogies on par with the Beatitudes in terms of importance.

And I'm only saying that Christ's own words intended to teach us, remembered by witnesses, brought to mind by the Holy Spirit - are of generally of more importance that letters written by the Apostles (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) sent to the various particular Churches they had established in order to encourage, correct, or instruct those particular communities (though being true for a congregation then are likewise true for a congregation today).
 
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~Anastasia~

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Christ established the Church and the Holy Spirit was with them.

Bottom line - Christ DID recruit Paul. God always had planned how the Church would be established.

It's hard to think it would have "been different" ... I believe if there has been no Paul or he had refused (of course God would have known in advance) ... it would have been someone else or in some other way. But Christ came at a time and to a people, and certain various ones were present in the persons of Paul, Peter, John, James, and the rest, and with the help of the Holy Spirit - Christianity WAS established - thanks be to God. God's ultimate plans cannot be thwarted.
 
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dqhall

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Although Saint Paul really developed Christian theology I think Christianity would be off to the worse without him. And would have given in to heretical sects such as the Judaizers.
Before Paul's missionary journeys, one needed to be circumcised in order to become Jewish and be a member of a Jewish community in order to receive their teachings. Paul worked to admit Gentiles into fellowship with the Jewish apostles without making them swear to observe the entire Torah law and its many rabbinical commentaries. I can not imagine a world without Paul's epistles, or without the writings of his companion Luke the physician.
 
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Stone-n-Steel

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Before Paul's missionary journeys, one needed to be circumcised in order to become Jewish and be a member of a Jewish community in order to receive their teachings. Paul worked to admit Gentiles into fellowship with the Jewish apostles without making them swear to observe the entire Torah law and its many rabbinical commentaries. I can not imagine a world without Paul's epistles, or without the writings of his companion Luke the physician.

Gal. 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

I am sure the Lord would have raised up someone to have a ministry to us and I do think He choose the right person who was at that time the leader of the persecution.
 
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fhansen

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Would Christianity be different without St Paul?

Could Christianity survive without his teachings?

I am starting to wonder if we should hold onto the words of Jesus in the NT more than those of Paul. It seems to me that Paul has taken over the NT. Rightly or wrongly so?
It depends on how one interprets Scripture. If we understand that the New Covenant is intended to justify us by really changing us, into just beings, and knowing that the standard for that justice is love, the Greatest Commandments, then we find nothing but common ground between Paul and the rest of the NT. Faith is intended to connect us to the God who transforms us into His own image. This is a matter of His putting His Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts as per Jer 31. So from Paul:

"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Rom 13:8-10

"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

And the Church has summed all this up succinctly in its teachings by quoting a 16th century believer:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."


 
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ToBeLoved

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The everlasting words Christ said are in a special level of being for all of eternity --

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

Paul's writings (just as you've said) are usually to a specific church and it's specific temporary situation.
But God chose to include those letters in His Word. So I believe God knew that these issues were issues that many others would experience and that Paul’s letters were included for a reason.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I follow only the teachings of Jesus as he is the son of God and the one who judges, not Paul.

Jesus forgives sin and it was Gods plan to be so.

But there is nothing truly wrong with the teachings of Paul for his time for the teachings of a man as he was not perfect him self, no man is.

But I only go to the teachings of Jesus as he is the judge and man is not.
The problem with that approach is that there were many things that Jesus only told to His disciples. Jesus taught them things He didn’t teach the masses and they took all of this with them after His death to continue on.

For instance, Jesus didn’t publicly teach about the Holy Spirit coming, yet how foundational is this one thing to our faith.

God Himself sealing us with Himself.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Let’s also keep in mind that Paul was the only apostle to the Gentiles.

Paul started out with the Jews as God said first to the Jews then to the Gentiles, but to think a ministry to the Gentiles would not be different than one to the Jews is not understanding how things changed from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant and that to bring all under one sheep pen was handling two very different situations.

Paul was dealing with a lot of idol worship like Diana. Aphrodite and all sorts of false dieties. It was a totally different situation
 
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Small Fish

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Where do you think Paul got his words from?
Unless you think Paul was lying, he didn't come up with what he wrote on his own.
In Ephesians 3:3-6 he wrote that by revelation from God he learned of the mystery that we Gentiles would be part of God's plan.
Galatians 1:12 says that he didn't come up with the Gospel he taught on his own, but he received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 12 says that he received many revelations from Jesus Christ.

The church today would be very different, and not for the better, without Paul.
God may have used someone else to do what Paul did, and people would complain about that person as well.
Yes exactly. Like Moses, Paul did not bring his own Word but the Word if God through revelation. That is the same as Christ Speaking and is the very thing Christ paid for on the cross. To purchase our bodies, clean us from our ideas (like Paul had his own ideas before his convertion and persecuted Christ) and then use our mouths to speak His Own Words through. It was not Paul's Gospel but Christ's. It is the very Word of God and the Word is God. John 1:1
 
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Lost4words

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Some interesting posts.

What proof do we have that Jesus did talk to Paul on the road to Damascus?

I am not saying Paul has no right to be in the position he is in now in Christianity but the NT is occupied by a lot of his works. If we didnt have them, would we now be on a different course!
 
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Ken Rank

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Would Christianity be different without St Paul?

Could Christianity survive without his teachings?

I am starting to wonder if we should hold onto the words of Jesus in the NT more than those of Paul. It seems to me that Paul has taken over the NT. Rightly or wrongly so?
Peter wrote how the untrained misunderstood and misapplied Paul back then, to people familiar with that culture, it's use of idioms, and other context effecting influences. We are so far removed now, that we really do misunderstand Paul because we are not only ignorant of the cultural influences but we are ignorant of the exegetical methods Paul used (like the rules of Hillel) that are design to directly effect context.

Paul is in perfect harmony with Messiah and the rest of the bible... when you read him through a lens that takes what influenced Paul into consideration.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Would Christianity be different without St Paul?

Could Christianity survive without his teachings?

I am starting to wonder if we should hold onto the words of Jesus in the NT more than those of Paul. It seems to me that Paul has taken over the NT. Rightly or wrongly so?

Sure, we can dispense with Paul......................IF we want to acknowledge that Jesus, as Lord of all, doesn't know what the heck He's really doing. Do we want to go there? I think not. And like it or not, Paul is a part of the Church Universal, along with Peter and the rest of the earliest of Jesus' troupe.

:eheh:
 
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RDKirk

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Interesting question. Many build their theology from Paul, instead of first going to Jesus teachings, and understanding Paul from them. Maybe the reformers are to blame for this?

The Reformers did not fail to take the entire NT into their theologies.
 
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