Worship of Maria/ the virgin Mary?

[DeerGlow]

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[Albion]

Could you unpack that for us a bit?

1. Many prayers found in any Catholic prayer book, and the rosary, ARE indeed directed to the saint in question and often extol their ability to deliver on our petitions.

2. Asking a neighbor for their prayers is not comparable to petitioning the spirit of a deceased person, even if you do not attribute supernatural powers to such spirits in the prayer.

 

[parousia70]

I meant dead Saints, not the people we know on the earth. I am Protestant so I do not know firsthand but that is what I have heard. Like Saint Augustine (I don't know too many Saints) or Saint Nicholas, praying to them.

Matthew 22:32
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:27
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

Luke 20:38
38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

John 11:26
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

 

[parousia70]

1. Many prayers found in any Catholic prayer book, and the rosary, ARE indeed directed to the saint in question and often extol their ability to deliver on our petitions.

What do you suppose is happening here?:
Revelation 5:8
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

and here:

Revelation 8:3-4
3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand.

2. Asking a neighbor for their prayers is not comparable to petitioning the spirit of a deceased person, even if you do not attribute supernatural powers to such spirits in the prayer.

Why not?

 

[Albion]

Matthew 22:32
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:27
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

Luke 20:38
38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

John 11:26
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

None of these verses say anything about us praying to them, do they?

 

[Albion]

Why not?

If your next door neighbor is the same as a ghost you only presume to be in heaven and, in addition, able to hear your prayer...why not also pray to a squirrel? After all, if we are going to stretch the truth at every possible opportunity, it could be argued that the squirrel is also alive and owes his existence to God. There really is no end to how much a straightforward verse can be twisted by false analogies, etc. if we think that's right to do.

 

[Goatee]

It all comes down to interpretation. You either believe or you don't. As a Catholic I strongly believe in Mary's intercession and the Saints too.

 

[parousia70]

None of these verses say anything about us praying to them, do they?

Nope. Which is why I don't pray TO them. I do ask them to pray FOR me though.
They clearly have the ability to offer prayers on our behalf to God the same way I can offer prayers on your behalf to God.

Since you apparently believe they DON'T have that ability, perhaps you could point us to some scripture that supports your belief?

 

[parousia70]

If your next door neighbor is the same as a ghost you only presume to be in heaven and, in addition, able to hear your prayer...why not also pray to a squirrel? After all, if we are going to stretch the truth at every possible opportunity, it could be argued that the squirrel is also alive and owes his existence to God. There really is no end to how much a straightforward verse can be twisted by false analogies, etc. if we think that's right to do.

I don't buy your analogy.
I don't know of any scriptural teaching that says Animals can pray for us, do you?

Conversely, scripture is awash with examples of living members of the Body of Christ, on earth and in heaven, witnessing, cheering us on and praying for us.

Hebrews 12:1
12 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

 

[Albion]

Nope. Which is why I don't pray TO them. I do ask them to pray FOR me though.

If you say so, but you cant fault us for assuming that a self-identified Catholic probably has prayed the rosary, for instance.

 

[Albion]

I don't buy your analogy.
I don't know of any scriptural teaching that says Animals can pray for us, do you?,

Nope, but neither do I know of any scriptural teaching that says we should pray to spirits of departed humans, either, and that did not deter you.

 

[parousia70]

If you say so, but you cant fault us for assuming that a self-identified Catholic probably has prayed the rosary, for instance.

The 2 components of the rosary are the Hail Mary and the Our Father.

Care to unpack either of those prayers and identify your objection to any of the verbiage contained Therin?

 

[parousia70]

Nope, but neither do I know of any scriptural teaching that says we should pray to spirits of departed humans, either, and that did not deter you.

And since we don't pray TO them, as I have explained, what exactly is your objection?

 

[Albion]

The 2 components of the rosary are the Hail Mary and the Our Father.

The meaning of the rosary itself is not defined by the Hail Mary and the Lords Prayer, however. Check it out.

 

[Albion]

And since we don't pray TO them, as I have explained, what exactly is your objection?

We?

You said that YOU do not pray to them. There are plenty of members of your church--and here on CF--that do pray to them and defend the practice using the same arguments you did.

 

[parousia70]

We?

You said that YOU do not pray to them. There are plenty of members of your church--and here on CF--that do pray to them and defend the practice using the same arguments you did.

Can you point me to one or two of them as examples?

 

[parousia70]

The meaning of the rosary itself is not defined by the Hail Mary and the Lords Prayer, however. Check it out.

I don't follow. What "source" for this "mysterious meaning" that you have not elaborated on are you using?

 

[aiki]

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Luke 1:27-28

Doesn't say anything about Mary being special and unique to God's purposes. She was of the right line and favoured by God to bear Christ. But this doesn't by any means imply that she was necessary to God's plan or special in-and-of herself. Any woman from the right line could have been favoured by God as Mary was.

 

[parousia70]

Doesn't say anything about Mary being special and unique to God's purposes. She was of the right line and favoured by God to bear Christ. But this doesn't by any means imply that she was necessary to God's plan or special in-and-of herself. Any woman from the right line could have been favoured by God as Mary was.

Therefore...?

 

[aiki]

Therefore...?

Therefore, Mary is not worthy of the veneration given her by Catholics. She is just a woman, like any other, favoured by God, not because she deserved to be, but because God deigned to use her.